143 comments and counting…
1) It’s amazing to me that some people simply cannot see that the Bible was written in a specific time, context, and culture and therefore speaks out of that time, context, and culture. Are the underlying truths held within universal and timeless? Of course. Are many of the specific instructions informed by the culture they were written in? Of course. It’s beyond me that this reality is ignored by so many.
2) I’m not opposed to debate. Debate is fine. Sometimes people are called specifically to debate. I don’t really enjoy debate. I like to be in places where each side is willing to really hear from and learn from the other. Most the time this happens in dialogue, not debate. Still, if it’s your call you go for it baby! My husband, for instance, is quite good at it. It feeds him. When he’s debating he’s obviously in the right place at the right time. I don’t mind if people debate – even endlessly – on my blog. But what floors me is the mean spiritedness of some of the commentors who are opposed to the ideas I espouse. I mean, it’s one thing to disagree, but to call a Sibling in Christ names that are only intended to ridicule (like the “Abyss”) …or to say that I don’t love Jesus or know Jesus…or to imply that my call to ministry and ordination is from Satan is just… cruel. Yet in the same breathe these people claim to be acting in a Jesus-like manner. Weird.
3) A couple of times, in emails and such, men have written to tell me that I shouldn’t pay attention to feelings and instead stick to things that are “real” – to “the facts.” Doesn’t that crack you up? What are feelings, intuition, and instinct–figments of the imagination?! Denying all which is not concrete and measurable is just another example of a patriarchy acknowledging “sola reasona” as the only way of knowing….
3) I love Jesus and Jesus loves me. I am massively sold out to the guy. There’s little in my life that I am more confident of then that. Saying that Jesus won’t recognize me in the hereafter, or that he’ll categorize me among the “goats,” or that I’m going to hell, or what-have-you doesn’t change the reality of who and whose I am.
4)…But then again, I am just a person, and those little blow darts sting. Not a lot, but a little. Like a bad batch of mosquito bites on the first camping trip of the Summer. So, if you are a charismatic type or an artist (who are, generally speaking, pretty damn good at tuning into the big H.S.) then maybe you could pray that I get some good “Jesus loves me” images in my sleep or something. ‘Cuz that would feel really good right now. In the meantime, Catie and I will just sing endless verses of Jesus Loves Me while we make cream of wheat for dinner…..:-)
Happy Spring Equinox!
Rachelle Mee-Chapman
Jesus Lover, Pastor, and Urban Abbess
Rachelle,
I’m not even sure how I started reading your blog…some blog’s link to a link to a link…
But I am encouraged by what I’ve found here. Very encouraged.
And having recently come across some VERY discouraging examples of women in Christian circles, the discovery of your blog has been both a breath of fresh air AND a source of hope.
I read today’s post and just had to let you know.
Keep going. Jesus DOES love you. And He’s loving me through things I’ve read here. So thanks.
Andrea (an SPU alum and Regent student & employee)
I just have an image Rachelle, of the disciple that was so in love with Jesus that he reclined against Jesus breast at the table. There he could hear the rhythm, the pulse…he could hear the endless sound of eternal love. May you you recline Rachelle into His presence, and be consumed by a love the conquers all. Shalom, my sister…Ron+
I just finished reading comment 150. Paul, you get my vote for husband of the year. You rock.
John Eight, three hrough eight
Every person in this debate
Though they cannot see
Has sided with the Pharisees
It is true we all have sided with them
And I see not one acting like Him.
I pray for both your churches
with their flaws and ghastly lurches
I pray you heed this rhyme
and there will be healing in time.
Of reconcilliation, I know not
But no one knows the future God has got.
God bless all the sinners, that is we
and may in the future your glory we see.
Now close the door on this ghastly stage
and calm our anger, and thoughts of rage.
For in you we trust to bring us through
as you are the only one
we can for sure
call true.
Yes, Lord, we are are sinning here its true
and the one we hurt the most is you.
To Paul (the dutiful husband),
You are deluded if you think that you can talk about ‘the reality of epistimology’ (i.e. the nature of truth) and leave out the question of whether Scripture is true or not.
Yes, I know that because I am sinful I have a tendency to suppress and distort the truth, but do you know how I know that? Through Scripture!
Romans 1:18-19 says that, “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who supress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them”.
And 2 Peter 3:16 says that, “[Paul’s] letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction”.
When I say Sola Scripture, it means I place myself under the authority of Scripture, I don’t place myself in authority over it. I read it for what it says and not what I have to say about it. And I apply it to my life. In practice, this is difficult, because I come across things I don’t want to hear. Like, “Do not merely listen to the word, and so decieve yourselves. Do what it says” (James 1:22) aww.. that smarts. But this is how I know I am under Scripture’s authority and not over it. The truth of Scripture is plain even in spite of how I sometimes wish it weren’t.
“All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness,” (2 Timothy 3:16).
“The Word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12).
If the Bible is God’s Word and if God’s Word is true, then the Bible is meant to judge and govern our thoughts and attitudes about everything.
So the truth of Scripture has everything to do with this discussion, because if it is true then we ought to submit to it. Scripture does have something to say on the issue of women in leadership, just as it has something to say about most everything. The issue of the truth of Scripture is at the heart of this discussion.
But the problem isn’t with the Scripture, the problem is your sin, unbelief, and desire to suppress the truth and distort the Scriptures. You are hard-hearted and unwilling to accept the things the Scriptures are saying.
If you are so confounded by cultural/historical context and have a hard time understanding why the Bible contains such verses as “A woman should learn in queitness and full submission…For Adam was formed first then Eve” (1 Timothy 2:11-13) and “the head of every man is Christ, and the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3), then you ought to not talk, lest you become one of those “ignorant and unstable” who distort the Scriptures “to their own destruction”.
Rachelle, your heart for people is evident, and that isn’t in question. It would be my hope that you’d understand, however, that when you post a public blog something that is reasonably “attacking” of not only a semi-public figure, but a pastor of a growing church, proponents of that church, who feel their pastor is acting Biblically and have never seen anything to the contrary, are going to step up and have something to say.
Paul: It seems like you and I might have something more to discuss. I don’t say that in a threatening manner or anything like that; despite my father’s attempts to teach me to the contrary, I’d rather walk away from a physical confrontation than engage in one, and despite the vehemence of my posts in the previous thread, you’d find me to be surprisingly sensible in a face-to-face discourse. So I’m inviting you out for coffee or drink-of-your-choice. You choose the place and time. I think we could have some intelligent and civil conversation here to see if we can reach some manner of accord. If you’re at all interested, I’m sure you and your wife have the ability to access the e-mail address that comes with this post; if you can’t, you can click on the name above my post to reach the blog I wrote in response to your wife’s initial post that caused this brouhaha, and can click on the profile link in that blog to e-mail me. Let’s see what we can make happen.
Rachelle-
I do not know you except through your blog.
Want you to know I love you.
With much thanks-
Erin.
Rachelle - you’re the best! Be encouraged today, and keep following Jesus!
Rachelle,
Thank You for hosting the Grid Blog. Until recently I attended a large megachurch in Grapevine, TX. It was the first church in which I ever saw a woman give the main message, and to so many people! It was an incredible experience after growing up in an abusive and rigidly patriarchal church.
It was not until recently that the teaching on women’s roles in marriage and leadership shifted toward a patriarchal and rather martinet stance. Often it is said by the leadership of this church in response to disagreement ” It’s O.K. We need your seat!” Somewhat tongue-in-cheek but again, a familiar and grievous response. So I have left them my seat, and am seeking a Monkfish Abbey of my own.
Thank You for your vision, support, and encouragement of so many, myself and other lurkers. I have kept you, your family, and ministry in prayers since learning of you.
Also, a big Thank You to Paul (the ever dutiful husband). It is so encouraging to see a guy who takes Jesus at his word and is willing to speak truth to power.
Thank You All.
-Joanna
Heads up Rachelle! Good on you; love your writing and your stand.
The whole thing reminds me of this (in)famous theory.
(Once again, nothing to do with your local Mars Hill.)
Oh dear me, it continues.
Chin up!
Hi Rachelle,
I’m very encouraged by your views on women. I’m planting a church that is emerging in NYC, and as I’ve told my team, “There is no sex at Cota” which is kinda funny and so I have to add, “no male and female regarding opportunities to minister”.
I’ve seen all the arguments, but I prefer to go for the simple, “there is no male of female” from Paul.
But even more from personal experience because I’ve just always known amazing Christian women, and the Jesus I know could not possibly hesitate to use a member of his body to bring his love to someone who needs it just because of their sex.
In fact, so many people are afraid of their motives in ministry, afraid of being prideful, etc. and I just know that God is bigger than us and wants us to minister love and peace and justice no matter what our screwed up inner issues are - if he can use a man who is operating out of pride and self serving dysfunctions, certainly he can use a woman who’s heart is pure (or just as screwed up!)
Another interesting thing I’ve heard anecdotally and havn’t gotten around to really reading about is the massive number of female pastors in the underground church in China - and they possibly have more Christians there then we do in America (plus they are growing and not shrinking like us), so we have a lot to learn from what they are experiencing.
Blessings, Jeff
While your heart is in the right place, Jeff, I have difficulty understanding how you can ignore the blatant prohibitions against women in the pastorate that the Bible indicates. God wants us to minister not love and peace and justice but acknowledging Christ as the only path to the Father, acknowledging our sinful nature, and asking His forgiveness of it. Love, peace and justice come from those things. But in the same breath, He doesn’t want us misinterpreting any of those things in order to foist an ecumenical pastorate into leadership that He blatantly forbids.