Grid Blog for International Women’s Day: Hammer-Time
This is not a complicated post. It is not eloquent or finely nuanced. It is simple, straightforward, and hopefully very clear. You do not need to try to read between the lines. I’m telling it to you straight. This is a call to action—a request for people who find themselves in my story to become vocal.
[Look here for a list of other participants in this grid blog.]
I live in Seattle. I am an ordained, seminary-trained minister. I will tell you up front that I have a generous theology and a generous life. I have an unapologetically postmodern hermeneutic, firmly established egalitarian views, and a very open house. I am unashamedly Jesus-y. I love the guy, body and soul. I’m also desperately in love my parish and its people. I care about how the church-at-large treats the people I live near and with. Combine these two loves—a love of Jesus and a love of place—and it naturally follows that things done here in Jesus’ name, they matter to me—not only an ideological level, but on a personal level. Living and ministering here is deeply personal to me, and it is out of that personal space that I write today.
Let me tell you a story.
The Rabble Rousing Woman
A few years ago a woman came to me for advice. She had been attending Mars Hill, a local mega church with a hip style and a gifted preacher—Mark Driscoll. After becoming a regular member there, she had decided to leave. She was looking for a new place to land. Word had gone around that I was a good person to turn to if you were looking for a new church. I was ready and willing to hear what a person was looking for, and to help that person find a match—even if it wasn’t with my own community. I asked her why she was looking for something new and she told me a story. She had a run in with Mark Driscoll; while she and her husband where trying to work it out with him, Mark told her husband, in no uncertain terms, that he’d better shut his wife up or he (Mark) would shut her up for him. The woman’s offense? In the course of a discussion with other church members she had mentioned that she wanted to work part-time when she and her husband had children.
How about another story?
MAN and wife
My alma mater is Seattle Pacific University and sometimes one of my former SPU bosses calls on me to host a table at a career night, or mentor a group of students, or be a guest lecturer in a class on vocational theology. During one of my temporary teaching stints I got to know a handful of female students and became a mentor to one of them. This young woman found herself without a church home. Why? She had been attending the popular and trendy Mars Hill when a sermon came down the pipe that she just couldn’t hang with. Mark Driscoll had decided to stop calling marriage “marriage.” It would now be referred to as “taking a wife.”
And still another tale….
A Student’s Confusion
Students at SPU continued to attend Mars Hill, and continued to struggle with the way roles for men and women were being portrayed. One student at SPU came to me with a concern. Mark had preached that women who wanted to have children should not take out student loans because they would then burden their husbands with their debt load when they stopped working to stay home with the kids. Wasn’t there another role? Wasn’t there another way? Couldn’t this young woman pursue the education she craved, fulfill a work role she would thrive at, and become a mother? Did the Bible require her to make a choice between higher education/work and motherhood?
And another…
Audience Denied
After several women in a row contacted me trying to find a church that was both culturally current and allowed for equity for both men and women, I decided to contact Mark. I emailed him suggesting that we get together. No one church is the right fit for every person—perhaps we could join efforts to help women who found they didn’t “fit” at Mars Hill find a place where they could worship and deepen their relationship with God? “Don’t bother,” a former Mars Hill woman told me, “He won’t respond.” She was right. He never did.
………………..
Up until now, I was going to keep all these stories to myself. My mentor and the man who ordained me, Pastor Ed Cook, always told me “your brother is never your enemy.” So I stayed silent. My female colleagues stayed silent. My male colleagues stayed silent. Mark’s former buddies at Emergent stayed silent. We let sleeping dogs lie. Then this happened….
We find a hammer
A local colleague and I were in mourning. We were telling each other stories of the wounded women who had left Mars Hill and found shelter in our church communities. We were sad, and stymied, and afraid for the other young men and women who were being taught such falsehoods about their very being. We were wondering, what, if anything we could or should do to thwart this man’s influence over our community, especially among young twenty-something men and women. My colleague—a wise and experienced woman—said to me, “I recently heard someone quote Billy Graham. He said that one of the ways he had succeeded in ministry over the years was to never publicly criticize another brother’s ministry.” There was silence for awhile as we took that in. Billy. Graham. I mean, if you’re going to listen to anybody, Billy Graham’s a pretty qualified choice. We parted with a sigh and a feeling of disempowerment.
Then, we got a cartoon in the mail.
First I laughed. Then, I got convicted. I called my colleague. “We have a hammer. Are we going to use it?” I issued a call for a grid blog on gender equality for International Women’s Day. Men could write. Women could write. Any topic about gender equality was game. But if they were interested, could women in Seattle write about what it is like to live in a city under the influence of Mark?….
The thing is, this isn’t a difference over worship style, or a debate about the appropriate size for a church. Those are style differences. This isn’t even a peripheral theological debate, such as a disagreement over whether or not you should baptize infants. This, this “women’s” issue—women’s freedoms, women’s roles, women’s voice—this is a justice issue, a gospel issue.
When a woman is told she has to limit her potential so a man can realize his—that’s injustice.
When God-given gifts of leadership are denied because of someone’s gender—that’s injustice.
When men are told they must carry all the authority and all the responsibility for family and organizational decisions—that’s injustice.
When women are threatened verbally and treated as inferior—that’s injustice.
And God wants justice—oceans of it. Fairness—rivers of it.
I’ll admit, I’ve been afraid. I’ve been afraid to say anything contrary about Mark Driscoll and his institution. I’ve been afraid of his column in the Seattle Times, his titles, his affluence, the power of his charisma and his money and the shear numbers of followers. I been afraid of the kind of vitriolic and inflammatory response he’s fired at my friend. And I’ve been afraid of the endless comments in my blog and email from the numerous and vocal Driscoll defenders. I’ve been afraid of the time and intense energy drain that comes with responding to those defenders. I’ve been afraid of the costs that come with fighting for equality and working for justice. But looming larger, above all these fears, was the fact that I didn’t want to treat my brother like an enemy.
Then I realized two things. First, you can disagree and not be an enemy. (To claim otherwise is a tool for silencing contrary ideals.) Second, justice costs. Once again, my favorite prophet Bono was my inspiration when he said in his address to the national prayer breakfast on Africa, “This is not about charity in the end, it is about justice, the good news yet to come. … It’s annoying; justice and equality are mates… And equality is a pain in the ass.”
Equality is a pain in the ass. “neither male nor female…” this gospel reality, it will cost us. It costs. So does justice. So does kingdom. So does speaking out, this telling of stories. But it’s required, and for me, it’s obedience.
Mark Driscoll is a very powerful man in Seattle. He was listed as one of the 25 most influential people in Seattle magazine. In an era where religion reporting is rare, he has the powerful position of being a religion columnist for the Seattle Times. He heads up one of the largest, most financially affluent churches in the city. He trains hundreds of young men to follow in his footsteps through his male-only church planting institution, Acts 29. And he uses that power to oppress women and to actively teach discrimination to anyone who will listen to his powerful, charismatic voice.
I live in his city. I live with his fall-out. This is part of my story. And I own my story. It is mine to tell. But, when someone is firmly convinced of the subjugated role of women, women have no hearing with that person, their voice is removed. I cannot access Mark, and if I could, I doubt he could or would hear me. But I do have a voice, and there are those who can hear it.
So I take my hammer, the only hammer I have—my voice—and I begin the dismantling by building something new. I build a memorial. I tell my story. I tell the story of my sisters. You add your stories, and together we build an ebenezer.
Will you change? Will you leave? Will you stay and speak out? Will you pray for restoration? For healing? For justice? For shalom?
You have a hammer. Dismantle the dysfunction. Build something new. Let justice roll.
You courage in speaking out, and the careful and considered way you have trod a precarious path, has given me courage to say what has to be said in my city. I thank God for women such as yourself who in telling the truth of their lives give me the courage tell the truth of my own and remind me of my own hammer
Thank you, Rachelle, for having the courage to tell the truth. And that’s all you did, really–you opened the window and let the light in. Abuse thrives only in the dark. It withers, dies, and crawls away when exposed to the light. When we keep quiet, abetting the darkness, we are co-conspirators in oppression, in abuse, in injustice. Telling the truth is the light.
I have the strongest image of you, standing outside the fortress wall, with a single candle. You have been joined by a few friends, also carrying their candles, and you feel a little bit alone. What you do not know is that there are masses of us, throngs of us, making pilgrimage to the fortress, and we all have candles, too. It may take us a while to make the journey, but we are on our way. One of these days, there will be too many candles surrounding the fortress for it to remain in the dark any longer.
Let there be light.
i have a friend who is attending Mars Hill and recently his wife left him. he was deeply broken by this and turned to his church for comfort and counsel. one of the Mars Hill counseling pastors basically berated him for allowing his wife to work outside the home and blamed him for the fact that his wife had abandoned him. he left more broken and shamed than he had come…
yet he still attends there. what gives?
There is a mega-church in Monroe, WA preaching the same gospel, threatening relationships.
I had no place because I was a working mother.
The men’s group prayed for me, sure I was filled with demonic spirits when I dared to question the time and spiritual commitments they required of my husband…and suggested he take control of me.
We left, and my faith was cold, nearly dead.
This culture in our churches continues because we stay silent.
Rachelle:
Excellent and courageous use of the hammer.
Tony
Thank you. I, too, come from SPU, and received my M.Div. from an evangelical seminary, at which I was regularly accused by male students of disobeying God because of following my call. It eventually was one of the major factors in my family’s decision to become Episcopalian 12 years ago (okay, we kind of like liturgy, too!). It’s important to speak up, and to let others know that God has better things in mind for gender relations, and women in society.
In seminary, one of the older women students who mentored me, told of her own struggle with feeling called in the evangelical church, after being married and having a family. She discussed it with an elderly female saint in her congregation, who said, “Well, if you were the devil, what would you say to shut half the world (the women) up?” When I still occasionally struggle, (and as a mother and partner in this busy world I still do) I’m reminded that God uses all of us and needs all of us to spread the gospel and invite others into relationship with Christ.
Rachelle,
First of this is a great post. I just started reading your blog and find it exhilirating.
Second, you are not the first in the pastoral community to have these concerns. I call it one wheel on, one wheel off theology.
Mark is not totally incorrect in his theology just his interpreation in his theology. I believe that first and foremost, scripture must interpret scripture. Contextualization of passages as it realtes to cultural issues is a slippery slope. Marks problem is not with just the role of women but specifically the role of women and ministry. In his world view, the Bible speaks against women in ministry as well as women in any position of authority.
Mark’s philosophy is not even a Proverbs 31 woman. Even under the old covenant which spells out the woman of virtue in Proverbs 31, the woman worked and was a viable product of her family both financially, spiritually, and emotionally.
Now enter the new covenant and Paul speaks to the role of women in the cultural setting applicable for his specific letters to the churches. Relevancy is still pertinant however Pauls letter to the Galatians spells it out even better: There is no male nor female in Jesus’s eyes.
There in lies the wheel on wheel off theology. A literal intepretation of the New Covenant role for women is paramount in some churches and denominations. Thats okay. It is when that interpretation is taken to the far right of conservatism that creates the problems you are describing.
Now if God has called you and I believe He has, He has given you a voice. Use it. Be proud of it, and unashamedly stand on scripture. Your voice is one of authority.
Stand proud.
Great post
Blessings
Henry
Rachelle,
I am very sorry you feel so deeply hurt by what has been passed off as the teachings of Mars Hill. The only thing I can say is that I think there has been some misunderstanding and miscommunication.
Mark will be the first to tell you that he shoots his mouth off and it gets him in trouble. We don’t know what happened with the couple and Mark. What he is reported to have said does not jive with any of the teachings I have recieved from him.
Somtimes people miss Mark’s sarcasm in his sermons. I remember the sermon where he said that marriage should be changed to “taking a wife”, and as I recall he was trying to show the level of commitment that a marriage should be, and thus renaming it.
As for the student, I remember that sermon also. Mark was not saying that women should stay home and he was not saying that women should not go to college. What he was preaching about was staying out of debt, and he was making the point that the people that are the most in debt are young women. Combined with the glass cealing this becomes a problem. Credit problems are hard on marriages. He was stateing that women should be careful about their borrowing and that most women (not necessarily those in Seattle) in the nation do not continue in the work force after children and marriage. So why build up that debt and come into a marriage with an extra stressor? Thats what Mark was saying. At least how I interpreted it. Mark is not against women working of going to college, he is against debt.
There are numerous ways to pay for college without taking a loan. In fact, there is no reason that you can’t make money going to college. (when I realised this I kicked myself for a week!)
As for reaching the man: Guess what happens when I send him an email? He does not reply to me either. Trust me, its not personal. Mark rarely replies to emails because he recieves over 200 a day. Some are cheerleading pats on the back, others are angry challenges to theology, others are just darned weird, a few are threatening and some are people emailing him on how to run Mars Hill. I suspect that if he ever actually got the email, he interpreted it as a bad idea. Probably because it encourages people to leave when they are challenged in their thinking. Its not that we have a problem with people leaving, but rather we have a problem with people leaving when they have goten the wrong idea about us and our pastor. Furthermore Mark has very little say in how Mars Hill operates. It is up to the elders and they out vote plenty of times.
Mark is a man that has a high view of scripture and a high view of Jesus. But he is simply a man. Like Paul, and even Jesus himself, he will be misunderstood. He is human, and that means that he doesn’t always say the right thing at the right time. But by and large I think you have misjudged him out of hearsay. He agrees with you that the status and condition of women in the world is deplorable.
We live in a society that does not love women. Empowered and autonomous, women are hurt and defiled, yet when they are not they are abused by their would be protectors, their husbands and fathers. How do we stop this? Equality in and of itself will solve nothing. Equals harm each other equally. Understanding the equality in the fully human and divine Jesus, the son in the Trinity, is the only answer. Until men love women as they would themselves, as Christ loves the universal church, it will continue.
You both are united in Christ. But you have differing methods and interpretations.
What he says in his sermons can be misunderstood. If someone says he said somthing in a sermon they have a hard time with, I would suggest listening to the sermon before you provide a teaching. You do have a pastoral issue in your first case. You have taken on the leading of someone that has a problem with somthing he said or did. We are not sure of what that is, and contacting him for his side of the story is warrented.
Reaching Mark IS difficult, especially for someone that does not recieve teaching and worship at Mars Hill. There are other ways to reach him. I recall that he does attend cross denominational pastor meetings, and there you could talk to him in person.
At Mars Hill we believe that God has given us all gifts and that those gifts are to be used for the betterment of Gods kingdom. We by no means believe that women should be silent, uneducated, or out of the workforce. We do however think that for both father and mother responsibility family comes before career. How we implement that is dependant on each of us. Many women are not opposed to staying home. Some like to work. Each family is different, but each family should not give up the responsibility of family for the sake of career. To do so is to be selfish, male or female.
Yeah, I know, get my own blog…
God’s Peace.
thanks for your courage. this is an issue i have a high degree of disagreement with mark on. i love the fact that my wife is talented and gifted and can be a vessel of Christ’s mercy through her occupation. that means i get the privelege of being more involved in my children’s life than the traditional father, and i get the benefit of joining my wife in taking care of our home. mark’s views do not take into consideration the unique gifting of the Spirit that makes partnership and unity possible.
having said that, i hope we can all affirm that in other areas mark has done good work for the kingdom. he is clearly a gifted preacher and has been used to bring many people into relationships with Jesus.
i hope that a profitable dialogue can come of this, that a horrible wrong toward our wives and sisters can be righted, and that a brother can grow through the loving admonition of the church.
It saddens me to no end that we as Christians treat eachother in this way (Mark’s treatment of women). To say that women are not to be a part of the leadership is to cut in half our effectiveness and knowledge. How many examples are there in the New Testament of Paul praising the faith, love, and witnessing of WOMEN? Paul doesn’t say that women shouldn’t teach, he says that they should go and be educated!! Women were not allowed in his day to be educated so they weren’t in a position to be leaders. Paul was suggesting a change to the whole system. Let them be educated…implying that once they were, they would be welcome in leadership. We as men go and are educated and so should women before they take on those roles so that we (men and women) will know what we are doing and preaching of, lest we mislead with our ignorance.
The genderization of religion is driven by fear and egotism. Some of the smartest people I know (religious and otherwise) are women. My wife was told at our last church that she couldn’t do the lessons at our jr/sr high youth group because there were “young men” and women are not supposed to preach to men. Although it was ok for her to do the lesson if I (her husband) openned and closed in prayer.
As a man, I apologize for the rude, arrogant, and hurtful way you and others are/have been treated due to your gender…all in the name of religion (I would say in the name of God, but I don’t believe that God supports this concept. Religion is man-made.)
Stay strong.
Thanks for posting this, Rachelle. Thank you for your bravery. For way too long, we’ve hidden our hammer because it just didn’t seem Christian to brandish it. I left an evangelical church years ago because my leadership gifts were not fully validated there. Thank God I found a place where they were, or I would probably never have darkened the door of a church again.
As for Aaron - the above commenter - I appreciate your attempt to tell the other side of the story, but I don’t think you can fully appreciate what those words, coming out of the mouth of a powerful man, can mean to a woman. Yes, the intent behind them may not be malicious, but if they’re interpreted through the lens of so many years of oppression, they become yet another straw on a camel’s back.
If, for example, there is a problem with too many young women entering marriage with debtloads, then perhaps we should look more closely at the systemic problems (the glass ceiling, the lack of funding and emotional support for women seeking education, etc.) rather than blaming the woman. I was one of those young women once, and I thank God I have a husband who supported me fully and didn’t resent the debt-load I brought with me into the marriage. Now, 13 years later, I am the primary income-earner and he is the stay-at-home parent and we’ve found a balance that works for us - that wouldn’t have happened if he’d been of the attitude that he was “taking a wife”.
Rachelle - before I found your grid blog, I posted my own reflections on being a woman leader in a Christian environment - you can find it here… http://fumblingforwords.blogspot.com/2006/03/ive-come-long-way-baby.html
“I recently heard someone quote Billy Graham. He said that one of the ways he had succeeded in ministry over the years was to never publicly criticize another brother’s ministry.”
One of the first things children learn in a dysfunctional family is intense loyalty to the family; they learn to keep the family secrets.
But the only way change and healing and transformation can happen is if someone in the family dares to break those rules and speak up.
Right on, Rachelle. Keep swinging that hammer.
Rachelle,
I think it is very difficult to speak very acuratley from your distance on these stories. Maybe not speaking out is good advice and doesn’t really form the hammer you think you have.
That said, I am sure Mars Hill does offend a culture feminized to death and does turn large numbers off with their view, . But their position and many other positions about women’s role in redemption is often grossly misinterpreted through the lense of current cultural bias.
I remember talking to one protestor outside a promise keepers rally who was surprised the learn that my wife worked and that she could speak freely since she interpreted PK’s stance on women offensive mostly because she did not understand it. I don’t do promise keepers anymore but not for that reason.
If you were totally accurate in your interpretation of the second hand stories you have encountered then I believe it would be an proper to see abuse and injustice. But you seem to think the complimentarian view is the injustice. Gender role in redemption seems to be as much an area for personal and corporate conviction as infant baptism does. Churches should be free to teach their convictions - though not abuse if that is occuring.
I believe that in our essence and creation we are equal but in many ways women and men are asked to play different roles by the creator-none inferior to the other just different. This seems inherent in the very real differences. Now if I get oppressive with my view in my church or family - that’s sin - and should be corrected. But to teach my conviction with respect and conviction seems only the same path you follow in believing God allows women in the role of Elder. I can understand your response to abuses but not to a meaningful and fairly reasonable Gospel interpretation.
Blessings
Numbers: At Mars Hill we have 35 people as elders and deacons. 15 of those are elders, 20 of those are decons. 9 of those deacons are women. 4 of them are in administration/operations with 4 pastors in the same. These 8 probably have more say on how the church operates day to day than Mark does.
Also, Mark has preached form the pulpit that he believes that women can be CEOs, CFOs, Managers, Owners, Real Estate Tycoons, Construction Workers, Veternarians, Presidents, Professors, brick layers and everything else. (its in the sermons on Genesis) I think I am even correct that he is ok with women teaching men somtimes (gasp!). He and the elders of the church just feel that the position of Elder/Pastor should be reserved for men.
With respects to power, on a practical day to day level, the women of Mars Hill hold just as much power as the men. When church leadership is kept local and has only two ranks, it really does not matter so much operationally. Yeah ultimately 15 guys make the big decisions at Mars Hill. But it doesn’t go without our awesome deacon women!
The church that many posting here think Mars Hill is does not really exist. I invite anyone who has not visted us and talked to a pastor after the service to do so. Its not about Mark or what Mark thinks. Its about Jesus. Paul, James, Mike, and Bubba are always around on Sundays. If you are concerned about somthing you have heard from someone else, come on down and see if its for real. We will be glad to see ya, even if you think you’re mad at us!
Heather,
I am pretty sure that finding the systemic problems is the solution. In no way do I (or anyone at Mars Hill in general) think blaming the woman is the way to go. And I think that was the core of what Mark was trying to say. That we need to teach men to be strong and caring so that they don’t get resentful when they discover that their new wife brought with her new unexpected debt. The prototypical Mars Hill man would lovingly help to pay it off. AND, teach the young single women about managing money and how to establish good spending habits, how to get into school in such a way that it does not cause debt, and to generally be their own woman who is not trying to GET a husband out of desperation or dependance. We also want to get young women away from the consumerism that they are assaulted with that tells them that they are not beutiful if they do not have product or item X.
Personally, if you still find your man masculine, responsible, attractive; and he does what is needed to keep his family strong, he doesn’t just sit at home all day playing XBox, can discipline his children and teach them in the ways of the Lord we have no problem with how your family works. Do you think he will jump in front of danger and take the bullet for you? Yes? Great. We welcome that. It is just that our gifted pastor sometimes says stuff the wrong way for some.
We simply think men need to be, and feel, masculine in a godly way as opposed to the ungodly way that is prevalent, even in some christian churches and denominations. We want men to be like Jesus in their relationships.
Aaron.
Just as a clarifier, Mars Hill as a church, not the prototypical Mars Hill man, would teach the younger women. I hate compound sentences that I turn into two somtimes.
Christian,
You said that it’s very difficult to speak accurately on these issues from a distance, and in a sense, I suppose you are right. But let’s not pretend that we live in a world where pastors never say things like “shut your wife up or I will shut her up for you”. That happens to real women, and it has real consequences in their real lives.
Reading all these posts reminds me of why I belong to a congregation and a denomination that affirm the equal partnershp of women and men in the Reign of God and in society.
This Sunday I will be leading worship at my ELCA church. As I do, I will be conscious of bringing with me, in spirit, all women who are called to leadership within the Christian community, as laypeople or as ordained servants of the Word, whose God-given gifts of preaching, of teaching, of pastoral care, of administration, are devalued or denied by men in their church.
And, frankly, I find the apologist for Mars Hill’s patronizing comments insulting to all women, including and especially the ones unfortunate enough to attend his church.
I’m sorry Aaron, but your comments just don’t satisfy me. You’re making assumptions about woman’s “consumerism” and “lack of ability to deal with her own debt”. I’m sure you don’t mean to, but it just comes off as arrogance. It seems to me that if you’re assuming every woman can have access to an education without going into debt, than you have never been nor tried to understand the plight of a woman who’s grown up poor, longed desparately for an education, had to move away from her rural family, worked 2 jobs to pay the rent and put herself through school, and STILL needed to rely on student loans to make tuition. Once you’ve walked in those shoes, THEN you can tell me I shouldn’t have brought debt into my marriage. And REALLY why do you focus on women who bring debt into the marriage? I’m sure there are just as many men who do the same. And if it’s not debt, then it’s other baggage, and why is debt so much worse?
And if you don’t think that allowing women to ONLY serve as deacons is NOT a glass ceiling, than you don’t understand what it’s like to be denied the right to live out what you feel is your calling. If I hadn’t found a church that allowed me to fully realize my giftedness (which led to me becoming an elder) I’m sure I would have rejected the church for good.
Oh, and by the way, I’m sure I’d jump in front of a bullet for my husband just as quickly as he would for me.
Rachelle,
It is a woman’s issue. It is an issue of justice. It is my sincere hope though, that you had the support of these women involved in your story to express these vignettes. Otherwise, bringing private stories shared in confidence with a friend or pastor, without such support, could be abusive too.
Rachelle…
I’ve been moved to tears by things you have written recently and in the past. Currently I live in an intentional Christian community and work for a para-church organization in Minneapolis. As a woman in ministry myself, your passion fuels me to be the person God created me to be. I put a piece you wrote in a zine I made this summer and I wanted to send you a copy. Is there an address I could send it to?
Thanks Sister! Keep Speaking for All of Us!
Lindsey
How wonderful!!!! It has been my exact experience to meet an influential unapproachable pastor or two….also highly successful ministries, mega church and mega bucks…Our Almighty…has those He would have to speak to people stewarding His churches and He will always make a way for the ones He wants to use for Mark or whomever….that’s God! So we truly can enter the rest of God and seek Him in order to flow with what He has us to do….isn’t this our essential quest to know what He is wanting us to do and the enabling grace for it?…Ofcourse while we are “glorying” When His spirit rests upon us….no matter the situation, we ARE victorious. Still we have community responsibilities, yet let’s step with Him….this is important…then its His works and not our own…and is truly an end of all strife.
I am thankful for this blog, it is refreshingly truthful and intellectually satisfying as well as being a learning tool of connectivities.
I think of Jesus’ immediate followers, the 12, and how that could apply to me and my ministry. No doubt I get pusued every now and then…I’ve received a death threat or two…..and so did the 12, along with Jesus….is this my justification? not necessarily. however I believe there are those the Lord will bring together for His purposes and those will be willing in that day…or not…until then, I’m thankful and still very encouraged about what He said He would do….He is true and faithful, and I will with all His grace do what He has shown me and…. causes to be. He is able, but we need be obedient….tis true tis true…..
While getting my BA a combined Religion/Sociology minor/major, I wrote my 40 page graduating “thesis” on the abuse of women in the church, because I was enduring the same, and couldn’t get help from the mega or the small churches I sought. I was astounded at the literature I found on the topic. When I graduated I moved to Seattle and by the good marriages I saw, I regained my faith in the institution of marriage. Marriage is a committment yet not to abuse. I dont’ believe any one should divorce unless released by God Himself, then, healing of the wounded spirit and heart flows and the person’s person grows. Everything is a lesson, we comfort wherein we have been comforted ourselves…that is that we’ve recieved from God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.
I pray this blog community would pray for Mark, not that God would bop him, but that God’s plan concerning him would be. Some people change. The mega church I mentioned would not allow a woman to be in ministry unless it was side by side with and extended from her husband, after 7 yrs or so, that has changed. God has the power and wisdom. If a person truly wants to change they can…..hence, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me….this is very true. There is a couple I respect highly who went to minister in Africa, they live in upstate New York. Their jeep broke down in the midst of a tribal ravage, they were approached and my friends husband was shot at from about a foot away. To this day they do not know where the bullet went…only that it did not touch him!!!! Now this isn’t always the case, yet my point being…if you are in the place God wants you, in His timing…stepping with the Lamb, we truly need not fear. This is the importance of being with Him and knowing what He wants us to do….there He gives the increase in every aspect of the word. Our wonderful God…… oh how I love Jesus…….too
Regarding justice some obtain and some others don’t, I have a song from the Lord, I call it the Isaiah 11 song…when we willnot judge with the seeing of our eyes or the hearing of our ears, but by the spirit of the Lord, not to throw sommon sense to the wind, yet this has a tremendous application especailly to social injustices or any injustice.
Father Son Holy Spirit
Power Love Sound Mind
Faith Hope Love
Grace Mercy Peace
Rachelle,
Yes thankyou…your writing is good and a blessing and
Yes I will pray and do all He so enables me to do
He will be faithful to continue to lead in our lives.
If one’s view of women is of ’submission’ and ‘complementarity’, one views the world through that lens. Yes, Mark and company like to point out that there’s that mutual submission stuff, but honestly, what difference does that make? The man is willing to take a bullet for his wife and she has to cook, clean, and service him regularly? Which is harder? Which requires more sacrifice? It is easy and cheap to say “I would die for you” because few of us face such a dilemma on a regular basis. It is hard to forsake obvious gifting and be a fundamentalist’s housewife.
And ‘complementarity’? Let’s try a little SAT analogy. Man is to Woman as: Master is to Slave? As European is to African? As adult is to child? As Ruler is to Serf? That is the meaning of ‘complementarity.’
The gospel demands there is neither slave nor free, Jew or Greek, male or female, but that all are equal heirs.
The fundamentalist red herring is that ‘equality’ means ’sameness’. It doesn’t. Equality means something like: I respect you and all of your talents in and of themselves and in the same manner that I respect myself and my talents and that I make space for you to use them. Bono’s point (that Rachele quoted) was that if we in the afluent western world truly thought Africans were our equals and not poor ignorant savages who are used to daily death, we would take action. But we don’t. Because we view them as less than ourselves, as complementary, we can excuse our inaction.
Mark’s view (and others like him) of women as less, as subject to men, colors everything about how they see women. They are the weaker sex (yeah, you push a grapefruit-sized head out of an opening that is not naturally much bigger in diameter than your penis!). They obviously need to be financially educated by the Wise Man. Sure they may have gifts, but don’t dare exercise them if it means having ’spiritual authority’ over a man. Don’t dare exercise them if it means the wife has the high-paying job and the husband stays home with the kids. Don’t dare exercise them if it makes the husband ‘feel’ like he isn’t ‘masculine.’
The result is a superiority complex and arrogance. And with arrogance comes the delusion of invincibility. And the result of that is something like Mark’s obscene tirade against Brian McClaren (http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/01/brian_mclaren_o_2.html). And when you are arrogant and think you are invincible, it is easy to fall into abuse.
Aaron, you write “With respect to power, on a practical day to day level, the women of Mars Hill hold just as much power as the men.”
Really? Are you sure?
If women *really* had as much power, your church would look different. The leadership would look different. The sermons would be different.
Compare the description of the Women’s Training day versus the Men’s Training Camp (http://www.sporg.com/registration?org_id=927). If women had as much power, the classes at the church wouldn’t have titles like “Practical Theology for Women” and descriptions that read “Since most theology discussions are given by men and aimed at a largely male audience, this discussion seeks to fight the unspoken mentality that theology is for men and parenting, sewing, or dieting classes are for women. Truly, there is nothing like a good grasp of true knowledge of God to enable women to meet the many practical demands of being a daughter, mother, wife, sister, or friend.”
That mentality is perpetuated by YOUR OWN CHURCH! Wake up and smell the misogny! *Women* don’t need a class on Practical Theology, everyone does!
Fundamentalists like Mark don’t see that their view of women, their treatment of women, is truly, fully anti-gospel. And the gospel is a pain in the ass.
Questioning women in Christian culture
Some interesting thoughts on the role of women, (not just in the church, but also in the Christian home) on bob.blog. Bob reflects on an Acts 29 bootcamp he attended a few years ago:bob.blog: Whoa… Hammer time.
Towards the end of our time there,
thank you
Rachelle, thank you for this post, and this blog grid. Reading the blogs, reading your post, reading the comments on your post, raises so many emotions in me. Gratefullness for those who are wanting to live free of cultural norms and patriarchy, sadness for those who cannot seperate Jesus from the culture in which we all were raised, anger and grief for those, both men and women, who are allowing themselves to be unjustly used to further a system that is injust, pain on remembering my own stories of wounding in a church that decided to hire a man ministry pastor to co-ordinate the four ministries that I had started, because I was not qualified for the position as a woman, my own wandering for a home after finally leaving this same church that decided, mid-stream, that women could not be elders or leaders. And finally, much gratitude for finding a spiritual home where we all wrestle with the concept and reality of equality and how that plays out in our lifes and in our faith community. I love your voice, and I love your faith, and I love how you love Jesus. And I love how you inspire us to use the hammer that we are given.
The one thing I would hope we keep in mind here is that sermon on the mount attitude Jesus asked us to have. In the midst of aking and even fighting for change MUST be the attitude of blessing those we feel are cursing us. Otherwise, we are less than truly Jesus followers.
I wonder how we’ll respond when God convicts Mark, not necessarily to change his doctrine, but at least his tone. Will we forgive? Are we praying for Mark, or just hammering him?
“First, you can disagree and not be an enemy.” Thanks Rachelle for those words…
> And ‘complementarity’? Let’s try a little SAT
> analogy. Man is to Woman as: Master is to
> Slave? As European is to African? As adult
> is to child? As Ruler is to Serf? That is the
> meaning of ‘complementarity.’
More like, “As God the Father is to God the Holy Spirit.” The Holy Spirit is a helper to the Father, but nobody’s up in arms to force the Father to give the Holy Spirit “equal rights.” Seems like a double standard to me.
It’s a matter of creation.
Heather,
I am not going to fight with you. At this point you will try to find me wrong when I am trying to show that I agree with you, and everything I type will be interpreted through your lens as someone that wants to trick you. Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll are not what you think they are. Below I will attempt to clarify even more, but you have made your decision to attack brothers and sisters in Christ and I can’t fight it anymore.
Paul, I was raised a feminist in a feminist home by a woman who is a professor of english at a women’s university (in texas). I grew up in the Episcopal Church, I know misogyny when I see it, and it is not at Mars Hill. I thought as you did. I told everyone not to go there. Then I listened, I investigated very deeply what Mars Hill represents, and I found I was wrong. I think you are wrong. I think you are looking through the same lens of hate that most fundumentalists look through. I may very well be wrong. But I trust that Jesus will guide me right. The Bible is the best argument I have found agianst misogyny.
POINTS FOR HEATHER:
I think that you misunderstand. It largely comes out of statistics. The average 22 year old woman has $10,000 in credit card debt. I am not assuming that every woman has access to a debt free education. I grew up on the campus of a women’s university the son of a woman who was an english professor. As it stands right now there are more scolarship and non-debt financial aid opportunities for women than there are for men. THIS IS A GOOD THING. We focus on both men and women bringing debt into marriage, I was simply illuminateing the side of the women to show that we are not a bunch of mysogynistic pigs over at Mars Hill. Never said debt was worse than anything else, and it is not the presence of debt that is the problem its the man or woman finding out about it after the fact just like any other problem.
Here is the teaching:
All baggage and debt should be out on the table before commiting to marry. A christian should work as hard as they can to stay out of debt. Thats it.
WRT glass ceilings-
Power and title do not always go hand in hand. Especially in a combat zone.
LuthernChk, I don’t mean to patronise, I only mean to say that while Mars Hill is a big target, it is not the right target.
LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
It is attacks like these that make people turn away from all churches. I love all you guys, and I know you want to do right and breaks my heart when people attack a place that loves Jesus and a man that does the same. How would you all feel if there was a gridpost against your churches saying that you wanted to raise up a matriarchy and that you were the worse thing to happen to christianity since the inquisition?
I like what this guy has to say. Esp the third paragraph.
http://purplepastor.com/2006/02/24/sleepless-in-seattle-part-4/
Also paul,
after rereading your post, I think your egalitarian = MH complimentarian. At this point its semantical.
Re: SAT Game. I would have to choose E, none of the above. The correct answer is: as brother is to sister, as image bearer is to image bearer, as Christ is to Church.
Also, Practical theology for women is a class taught by women for women so that guys with their screwed up perspectives can’t disrupt the learning process. Get it? There are numerous sociological studies that show that men tend to intimidate women in a mixed classroom environment. The class is so women don’t have to worry about Mark machismo when they are learning. So how is shuting up men so that women can talk and learn about God from one another misogyny?
Aaron,
If a woman in a church (not MH, but any random church) expresses her opinion on an issue, and the pastor decides to disagree by publicly telling her husband to “shut your wife up or I will shut her up for you”, and the members of the church cheer him on, would you say that is a healthy church or a church that is drowning in misogyny? It really doesn’t matter what the point of difference was….I’m trying to see if you think that is a misogynist response coming out of a whole church culture that is misogynistic….or do you consider that proper pastoral care?
Aaron: As they say in 12 Step Programs, admitting that you have a problem is the first step toward recovery. A church that teaches gender inequity, denies women access to all areas of leadership and expects husbands to discipline wives is misogynistic that it boggles the mind.
If you don’t want your church to be a “big target,” then your church should confess the sin of sexism, correct the unjust way that it treats women and affirm in both word and deed the equal partnership of women and men in the Reign of God. Until you do, all we hear is a “clanging cymbal.”
In the meantime, I hope and pray that the women and men your church inevitably hurts with its bigotry do not become so disillusioned with Christianity that they drop out of the faith altogether.
“A church that teaches gender inequity, denies women access to all areas of leadership and expects husbands to discipline wives is misogynistic that it boggles the mind.”
I’d agree with you. The fact is that none of these are things that happen at Mars Hill. It is explicitly taught that men and women are both equal image bearers of God with different roles to fill. The only leadership position that women don’t occupy at MH is that of elder. As to the accusation made in this blog, I dealt with that over on Bob’s blog more extensively, but I highly doubt anything like what is described went down anything like Rachel described.
Josh (and others who’ve written in a similar vein):
First of all, what I am telling here is my story of what it feels like to be with women who have experienced hurt via thier realtionship with an influencial man/institution in my parish. That part– the sadness of watching God’s children suffer from erroneous teaching and vehement speech– my story, and I’ve got it first hand.
PLEASE DO NOT INVALIDATE THE STORIES OF THESE ANONYMOUS WOMEN and the doubtless numerous other women who share similar experiences. Denying thier truth and thier experience only causes more pain to them. Please spare your sisters. You can easily discuss the issues at hand without accusing people of lying.
Secondly, I’d like the readers out there to know –especially the male readers who may not be aware of this — that this very thing often happens to women who speak up against patriarchy and injustice. Men (and sometimes women) hear these stories and then say something like, “Oh, well you must be mistaken.” or “Oh, you just misunderstood what was happening.” Trust me, we’re not stupid. While anyone can “take something the wrong way,” in general, women recognize when they are being treated in dismissive and demeaning manner. The person being dismissive and demeaning may not understand what the woman they are speaking to is experiencing — but the woman feels it in her very bones. I think too that the number of stories that have intersected with my story not only add merit to one another, but provide testimony to a pattern of behavoir that should be attended to.
Third, denying gifted women from serving as elders and pastors does IN FACT deny women access to ALL areas of leadership and is incredibly damaging both to men and women.
Finally, I read Bob’s blog yesterday but haven’t read comments today. As you can see by the number of people posting on the gridblog and the number of comments it is generating, being well involved in all or even some of these conversations is nigh onto impossible (especially when you’re someone like me, who is dealing with chronic daily pain, which limits my ability to read on line and to write.) So, that’ why I’m not responding to your final line re:Bob’s blog. Just FYI.
Rachelle
p.s. my name is Rachelle, not Rachel. Again, just FYI
Rachelle,
I really appreciate what you’ve written above. I made the mistake of looking at another blog discussion linked here, and saw people saying things like “these annoymous women are exagerating or sepaking from feelings instead of what really happened.” That’s a real problem because it denies the reality that things like this could possibly happen.
The Boy’s Club
Rachelle has a challenging, troubling post here about her experiences as a woman attempting to minister in Seattle in the shadow of Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill. I’m not going to attempt to summarize it - go and read it….
First off, Rachelle, I apologize for spelling your name wrong.
I’m sorry if you think that I am hurting these women bringing their stories into question. The fact is that we should not take every accusation at face value. If that were true I could start a blog tomorrow and say that I know people who you have abused in your ministry and claim the same defense. I’m not necessarily implying that you are trying to mislead people, but as Christians I think we both should be able to agree that the church of Christ is made up of redeemed sinners who have a very real and living enemy whose goal is to cause destruction anywhere he can. The fact is that this post is a compilation of extremely brief stories whose sole goal is to destroy a brother in Christ’s ministry or at least his part in the ministry.
Frankly I’m saddened and rebuked by the fact that people are reading this article and believing the a brother in Christ is a person who uses his position as pastor to abuse women. I say rebuked because I will admit that I have been inclined to believe things about people whose theology I disagreed with no more evidence than you have presented.
Alright, I know that most of the people who commented above are quite offended that I would bring into question the evidence supplied in the original post. The problem is that we’re not even dealing with a story Rachelle has about an interaction with Mark. If the blogosphere were a jury in a US court room and Rachelle was a witness in some sort of case against Mark we would not be allowed to consider a word of her testimony above. It would be almost surely be considered hearsay and therefore inadmissible.
The fact is that we both can agree on one point I think. We both believe that we cannot let injustice, which is how I see this accusation, go unanswered.
PS: I pray that you’re new method of treating your migraines is succesful. I can barely stand the pain of stubbing my toe so I cannot even begin to comprehend what you’re going through.
Josh,
Simply because Rachelle is repeating stories she heard does not mean they are not true. By sweeping them aside you are not sweeping away the reality of them. We live in a world where real pastors say things like this to real women. Dont be too quick to sweep that aside. Take a moment and try to listen to the reality your some of your Christians sisters live in without assuming it cant be true.
Rachelle,
I don’t deny your story, and I am sure that the pain these women feel is real. Your story is that you have heard from people that they were hurt by an influencial figure. I see that. But I don’t think your story is over. I think there is the next chapter where you go and listen, and find out for yourself. Because now you have two people who will tell you it is not like that, and I can think of three women, a college professor, a stanford evolutionary anthropology student, and a PM at microsoft that will tell you that you are mistaken. So now your story has changed. You have been presented with separate contradictory second hand evidence.
We never said you were stupid and we don’t think you are. But neither are the 2000+ women that attend Mars Hill. Seattleites are smart people, they don’t stick around when they are abused. We are not being dismissive in the way you say we are. We are legitimately trying to say that our experience, our story, which is just as valid as the others says somthing different. If you think there is a pattern of behevior that should be attended to bring your greivances with us to one of our pastors. I would recommend Pastor James or Pastor Paul. Come visit us. Listen to some sermons, all of them are on line since 2000.
Your third point is one of those differences that we just disagree on. And there are some nuances of that discussion that you and I would agree on. Who is right? Only Jesus knows. Our position on eldership is from our interpretation of the Bible through prayer. It is not meant to be domineering but Biblical. We simply ask that you give the same respect as we give to your interpretation that allows women to be elders. We disagree, but we respect your positon in your congregation.
Any and all, but especially Rachelle, we have nothing but love for you here at Mars Hill and you are welcome to visit anytime you want. If this were not true we would not be posting so adamantly. We would love to answer your questions and will address any problem you might have with us. Peace.
I too will pray for relief from your migraines.
With Gods love, Aaron.
Aaron,
Im confused. You first say that you dont deny Rachelle’s story, and then you say that there are respectable people at MH that would tell her she is mistaken. Which is it, it cant be both.
Josh, Jennifer, I agree with you both in some ways. In other ways you are both dead wrong. If the women that talked to Rachelle were to come forward (I am not saying they should, no no, anonymous is good) their statements would be admisable.
Aaron,
There may be very good reasons for them not to do so.
Jennifer,
First I believe she is mistaken about what Mark and Mars Hill teach. Secondly and separately I believe the pain of these women is real and legitimate. People get hurt by words understood or misunderstood every day. I hope that answers your question and clears up the paradox.
Aaron,
It really doesn’t. The experiences Rachelle is sharing do not fit with the kind of respect that you say MH has for women. You cant have a church with respect for women led by a pastor who tells husbands, “shut your wife up or I will shut her up for you”.
Jennifer,
If I and many other brothers were to ever find out that a man at Mars Hill threatened a woman in any way he would run a good chance of getting hurt and for sure would be asked to leave the church.
We do not threaten women at Mars Hill. EVER.
(I know you think Mark did this, but that is a situation that comes to us both second hand.)
Women are our sisters and we care for them and love them. In fact I can’t think of a better and faster way for a guy to get his ass kicked. Please, pardon the language.
If you personally know any man that has seriously threatend a woman at Mars Hill and attends, please let me know and I will tell you how to send me his name. That is somthing we do not tolerate.
Aaron,
Let me say right up front that I think you probably have a great heart. I can see that you are seeking to respect women as sisters in the Lord.
For right now, I just want you to take a step back and understand that some of your Christian sisters live in a world where pastors say things like that - and not only that, but the church members cheer him on. Really let that sink in. Forget MH, and forget Mark for a moment….just understand that some women really do live with this stuff. And then, I want you to go back to your church with your eyes wide open, knowing that no church is perfect and sin like that could even happen in the church that you love.
Jennifer,
The only thing I can say is that you come visit and ask another pastor about it. That is not how Mark teaches men to behave and the account is contrary to my limited experience with the man. If it is true it needs to come before the congregation and Mark needs to be disciplined under what he has taught our own men. But right now it is a situation that neither you nor I know anything about, and thusly it is up to the people involved to handle the situation. Mark is not monolithic and he certainly is not the heart and soul of Mars Hill. That is Jesus. Mark is a guy that has gift for talking. If he gets fired we can find another. We already have several great preachers.
Jennifer,
I understand what you say. Our church is less than perfect and so is our preacher. The only thing in our church that is perfect is Jesus. I go in with my eyes wide open every day. “The greatest threat to our church is not from the outside, its from the inside. It may even be me.” - Mark Driscoll.
Here is my question:
You say this is a justice issue. This requires a deffinition of what injustice is. Where do you get your ideas of what constitutes injustice and where do you get the motivation to oppose injustice.
I assume (at least hope) you get your motivation to fight injustice from a belief that God is against injustice. If that is your view, you must also view God as just. This leads to the other question, how do you define justice?
It seems there are two main ways that we as Christians can define injustice: something that goes against God’s design and intents, something we feel to be opressive to people. The problem that is encountered here is when the idea of complementarianism is, as a default, placed in the bag of injustice. The reason that this is such a problem is that very honest readings of scriptures lead people to that view. There is debate, but, apart from appeals to experience, there has yet to be any real difinitive conclusions. Basically, an honest, humble reading of the bible can lead people to egalitarianism, an equally honest, humble reading can lead people to complementarianism. If we are to say that God is just, then the LORD’s pronouncements must also be just. Many people see complementarianism as an edict set by God. For them, to be egalitarian would be to go against that which is most just, to go against the very One that has the right to define what justice is.
So, the idea that it is a justice issue in such a cut and dry way is lacking both generosity and grace towards those that disagree with you. Yes, as Mr. Mee-Chapman said, the gospel is a pain, in fact the whole bible is. However, it is the thing we all must come to terms with so please be careful when you decide to attack ideas and dismiss a whole group of people as misogynistic oppressors because they come to different terms than yours. Your answers may be right, the answers you disagree with may be the right ones. Either way, it the perogative of God alone to dfine justice and any true understanding of it must submit to God’s will.
blessings
Todd
So good, so very good. Thank you for being such a clear voice in the face of such a daunting issue. I appreciate all that you are doing there in Seattle. Peace and Blessings to You - Jim
i would like EVERYONE to keep in mind that the women who hold these stories with me–the women for whom these stories are indeed FIRST HAND,– these women (some of them) are reading this blog. they are hearing people say “this couldn’t possibly happen” and then calling me, hurt and damaged AGAIN and saying “But it did happen!” I beg–I literally BEG of you to STOP DENYING THE REALITY OF THIER EXPERIENCE! regardless of your experience at Mars Hill these women were told these things and treated in this manner. you may have a positive expereince there, other women may have a postive experiencer there, but these women did not. can you not see that??
i’m sincerely regretting making this post, not because of the debate it’s creating around idealology, but because of the people who are denying the truth of these women’s already painful experiences. i expected fall out — but not of this manner, and i apologize for the orginators of this story who are now bearing the pain of having thier truths denied. i’m really sorry you are enduring this additiona beratement.
all my love to the brave women formerly-of-mars-hill.
rachelle
One of the saddest realizations that comes out of these conversations is that you can change the names of the persons, denominations, ecclesiastical structures, etc. involved and the thousands of stories are multiplies beyond imagination. As dreadful as MH may be/is, there are good liberal denominations that clean their misogyny up but are just as guilty but with pc stickers on their foreheads. Sad but is what fuels the search for justice and full participation. One more light standing with you in the darkness.
I want to comment on a couple of discrete elements here.
First: fake apologies. If you want to apologize for something you’ve said, give a real apology: I am sorry I hurt you. NOT I’m sorry if you think I am hurting you. To give a fake apology is to continue the ‘I’m right, you’re wrong’ debate. If you don’t want to apologize, don’t, but fake people out. That is a power and control tactic.
Second: discussion by banging people over the head. “if only you’d come and experience it yourself” - again, this is a power and control tactic. There are a number of women who have had direct experiences, as expressed by Rachelle. Having heard from one of these women directly myself, I accept what they say on face value. When people, and in this specific case, men, tell others to come experience MH directly, what you are conveying is that these women’s stories are untrue and any idiot will figure that out by just attending MH once. Listen to your sisters stories. You are not being asked to adopted them as your own, but simply to listen and acknowledge their pain.
Thirdly, just something I’ve noticed: no MH women have commented on this post. All the defending is coming from men. Hmmmm….. But PLEASE hear me clearly- that is not a challenge to gather up MH women to start a defence fight on Rachelle’s blog.
Shalom to all.
The last line in the first paragraph should have read “but DON’T fake people out”
I am a female member at Mars Hill. Your characterization of their treatment of women is false. In particular, I take issue with the portrayal of a complementarian view of women as some type of injustice. The call to submit, help and respect is not injustice. To call it so is to claim that the Holy Spirit is dealt injustice in the Trinity because He is called the Comforter/Counselor/Helper. OR that Jesus is dealt injustice by God when He emptied Himself of His rights and took on the form of a servant, humbling Himself even to death (Phil. 2). If you’re offended by the concept of submission, then you’re offended by the very nature of Christ’s role in the Trinity.
Someone else likened a women’s submission to her husband as a slave/master relationship. That’s ridiculous. You need to let Scripture interpret Scripture, and the analogy the Bible gives us is Christ and the church. If you are offended by or don’t trust Christ’s authority over the church, then I can understand why you are distrustful of God’s commands to wives to submit to their husbands.
Louise
Mars Hill Member
I in no way intended to make it sound like I was denying their experience. I apologise if I did so.
To Rachelle and the women whose stories you have told,
For the record, I believe you.
Like Rachelle, I am also in a position to minister to women with stories like these, and worse, believe me. None of these stories shock me, or cause me one second of suspicion. I’ve heard the same from women in other places. Like the victims of sexual violence, telling the story can bring a huge backlash. Just know that your story is not lost, and what happened to you was not OK. Just because people don’t believe, doesn’t mean Jesus doesn’t see.
To those who hold the complementarian view I can only say this. I am a woman who has pastored a local church, who has sat as an elder on a governing board at an evangelical church of 6000, and who is currently an elder in the body of Christ at large. I didn’t particularly want to be these things, and I surely didn’t strive to be. He just made me this, even when I believed, like you, that I must be mistaken. Like you, I believed that pastoral leadership and ecclesiastical eldership is for men only.
So now, if I attended your church, and asked for pastoral advice about my gift and calling, what would you do?
My hunch is that you’d carefully, lovingly, and precisely inform me why I am either sinful, mistaken, or deluded in my thinking. Then perhaps you would speak to my husband and ask him why he let me get so far out of hand. In so doing you would inadvertantly undermine my ability to hear God, quench the spirit inside me, and rob yourselves of the gifts of one called by Jesus himself.
I understand your dilemma, I really do. It just goes against the reality of what God is doing in his church today. Perhaps your theology regarding women in ministry is actually contrary to the work of the Spirit. This is a serious issue, one I ask you to carefully reconsider.
I’m just thinking as I’m reading the comments from the Mars Hill men- if Mark is teaching something so drastically different than what these women have experienced, you may want to reconsider if he is really such a great communicator/speaker after all!
Clearly that warm, fuzzy, complementarian view isn’t really getting across to everyone!
I’m reading through all the comments now…I’m at number 20.
Heather, rock on!!! Perfection.
All I have to say is, “Yeah, what she said.”
Okay got to go do something else for while. Will pick up reading again later.
Rachelle
Dear Mr. Aaron,
Thank you so much for clearing up a misconception that i have carried for so long. Until you wrote that “Seattleites are smart people, they don’t stick around when they are abused,” i had not realized that only stupid people are abused.
if you have the time, could you please contact these authors to let them know this? I don’t think they had that information when they wrote their books:
Diane Langberg, On the Threshold of Hope: Opening the Door to Hope and Healing for Survivors of Sexual Abuse; Elaine Weiss, Surviving Domestic Violence: Voices of Women Who Broke Free .
Another thing i want to thank you for is the info that Seattle screens its people based on intelligence. i’m curious as to how the government does this. do they subject everyone to IQ tests? What do they do with the rejects? is there a special “immigration” task force that roves the city in search of the stupid?
lastly, i’m thankful that no one in Seattle is abused. While i haven’t seen those same stats in the press, i’m glad that you have let us readers, here, in on that. If we can eradicate abuse from an entire metropolitan area, then, wow. there is hope for the world.
thank you, again.
———————
*takes off her sarcastic hat*
let me be very clear as to what this comment is about.
This comment is not about your church (MH).
This comment is not about your pastor (MD).
This comment is about the nature of abuse, and how it occurs. That one statement you made degrades men and women all over the world.
If I could look you in the eye, i would do so, and tell you point blank that your sentence, “Seattleites are smart people, they don’t stick around when they are abused,” devalues me as a person and a woman. It devalues every single man or woman who has ever made the difficult decision to wake up in the morning, knowing that an abuser lives in their house. It devalues every person who has, rightly or wrongly, tried to choose forgiveness and grace in the face of a sinner. Lastly, it backs up the lies of the Enemy when an abuser tells his/her victim that s/he is “Stupid”.
i doubt that you meant that sentence to carry that much weight. At least i hope you didn’t. In the name of grace and love, I just ask that you would be careful in the future.
Please.
Fists and baseball bats aren’t the only things that crush people.
Louise,
I think its totally acceptable to say that *your* experience at Mars Hill is not characterized this way…but it’s unfair, and untrue, to say that everyone has had the same experience.
Aaron,
I would really like to understand how your words could be taken as not denying these experiences? I just don’t see how they can. You said that MH doesn’t threaten women ever - but here you have a perfect example of a woman being threatened there.
You know…you love your church. You respect your pastor. I can understand that. I know what it’s like to love a church, and to respect pastors. Can you imagine what it would be like if these stories were actually true? Can you imagine loving a church and committing yourself to it, only to have this happen? Think about what it would be like for a woman - not a woman on the margins of the church who has some angry point to prove - but a woman who trusts herself to the church, who is a faithful member to go through this. And imagine what it would be like for other believers to discount her experience with comments like “we don’t treat women that way” or “come and see for yourself and you’ll find out it’s not true”. How can we even have a profitable conversation about the issues behind the stories if the stories themselves are denied?
Thanks for your kind words, Rachelle. I sincerely hope that the story-sharers can feel validated and not just doubted by reading the comments on this blog. There are so many of us who share their stories - whether at MH or other churches. I was told so many times that I couldn’t do things in church because I was a woman that I quit going entirely. Now I’ve finally found a place where I feel safe and validated, so I have returned.
For those who fly the “complementarian” flag, try to put yourselves in our place for awhile. Imagine that you are a child in a playground. All you’ve EVER wanted to do in that playground is swing as high as you can on the swingset. However, you’re told again and again that the rule book for that playground says that only people with brown eyes can swing on that swing. Your eyes are blue. They keep telling you that you still have as much value as the brown-eyed children - you just can’t play on the swings. They point to the slide and say “look, you’re very welcome over THERE.” You try to play on the slide, but again and again you feel drawn to the swings. You try REALLY hard to forget about the swings, but you can’t. It consumes you. You were MEANT for the swing set.
Now tell me if you wouldn’t open up the rule book and try to understand whether it was simply being interpreted by the brown-eyed children and PERHAPS you can find your way to the swings.
That little child was me, growing up and being told I couldn’t read the Bible in church. I couldn’t become president of my class in Bible College. I shouldn’t plan on getting an education. I should plan to stay home with my children. I should try to find my value in those things and forget about the swing set that kept calling me.
Finally, I decided that if I couldn’t have the swing set, I couldn’t play in that playground. But when I left, I missed the playground and thought there must be a better way. I came back, determined to try once again. Finally, when I accepted my calling to be an elder and a leader and found a place where I could do it, I felt peace and contentment and a new depth in my relationship with God.
Go ahead and try to tell me I was wrong. In MY playground, blue-eyed children get to swing!
(I don’t blame the brown-eyed children - I know they’re just trying to figure it out as they go along too - I just ask them to try to understand.)
Rachelle,
You only have 1 story that voices legitimate concern. I don’t deny the story of the first lady. However, there are 2 things I know to be true about that story.
1) You have not given your readers both sides of the facts. In truth, you yourself have said you were unable to get the other side of the story when you tried to contact Driscoll. So you yourself do not know all of the facts either.
2) While the head pastor of a church of 4000 is not generally able to have one-on-one conversations with everyone who takes issue with what he has said, there are multiple ways to get a legitimate concern heard and addressed at Mars Hill. I repeat, there are MANY ACCESSIBLE ways to have concerns addressed at Mars Hill. So even in the worst case scenario in which a pastor said to her exactly what was repeated to you, there are means for bringing those words before an appropriate authority so that the pastor in question is held accountable.
I repeat my first point. What you have recounted here as some sytematic problem inherent in the complementarian view is actually 1 isolated incident in which we do not know all of the facts. We will never know all of the facts because, correctly so, no Mars Hill elder is going to tell YOU whatever other problems they perceived in this lady’s life.
My final concern is that you are linking the first lady’s perceived injustice to sexual and physical abuse of women. We actually have a large ministry to sexually and physically abused women at Mars Hill, and I can tell you that linking the first lady’s perceived ill with sexual abuse really minimizes and denies the seriousness of that offense.
Louise
Louise,
Thank you for not denying the facts of the story of the first lady. But, you deny its importance by insinuating that she had “other problems” that would justify her pastor treating her that way. There is no justification for that. Ever. I think, in the end, even Mark would say that.
As far as abuse goes, I don’t remember Rachelle ever linking it to sexual or physical abuse…but not all abuse is sexual or physical. Spiritual abuse can be just as harmful.
it’s funny, as I read this, I find myself just as tired as I was/am when I finally posted about this.
I hope this thread isn’t over with, because after reading a good amount of the comments, I feel the need to put forth a little tidbit or two of my view.
Anytime you speak from a position of authority, no matter what you say, it will be taken derogatorily. People pick up on this very quickly. Women, pick up on this instantly. Why? Because they have suffered for a long time under one authority or another that they have not wanted, or needed. They have been dealt that bad hand far too many times. And damn, they sure are fed up with it. I am too. It’s the shit end of the stick, and nobody should get that because of the gender they were born into.
When you tell someone that their story is invalid, you speak under the assumption that you have the authority to say what is true and what is not. How could you possibly know what is truth for someone else? Is it because you don’t want to believe that someone could be hurt like that in your church? It happens. All the time. To almost everyone I have EVER met.
When you say things like “we treat the women in this church very well”. That is a position of power. It’s a subtle one, but if you think about it you can begin to understand why it is. Claiming that you “treat women well” implies that you have the authority to treat them worse but choose not to out of the goodness of your heart. It implies that the female half has to be taken care of. It removes women’s voices from being heard. It implies they don’t have the ability to control their own lives.
When you say that you “allow” women to become board members or whatever your church deems satisfactory from a woman. That is a heinous position of power.
When you say that women can not be elders or pastors, that is a sexist statement.
When you give someone the authority over you, they have the right to a statement like “I will allow you to…”, because you have submitted to their authority. Walking into a church is not giving someone else authority over you. Being a woman is not a sign of submission. Having a penis is not a sign of authority.
I do not claim to know everything about this, because after all, I am a white male who has enjoyed a life without much racial, gender, ethnic, or religious diversity. I fancy myself a fairly egalitarian kind of guy and my wife still loves me.
But I do know this… When you start speaking from a position of power or authority that you aren’t entitled to, then you better get ready for a shower because you are going to get all sorts of shit dumped on you.
Okay, here’s that little SAT analogy again:
Men are to Women as Master is to Slave.
Let’s take a quick gander through the bible: there are slaves all over the place. Loads of rules about them in the OT. Some discussion of them in the NT. Things like: Masters, treat your slaves with respect. Slaves, obey your masters. Let’s look at Eph 6: “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. … Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men…. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way….”
This construction is *highly* similar to the Husbands & Wives construct in Eph 5 of mutual submission.
So, now complementarianism: Masters & Slaves are complementary. Are we to view Husband-to-Wife as Master-to-Slave?
The problem here is that complementarianism takes *mutual* submission and bashes women over the head with it by denying God-given spiritual and non-spiritual gifts.
NO WHERE does the bible say women are to be housewives only. Or men are to be the breadwinners. These are social constructs of our society.
Mark says that women can have any position of power and authority over men, except in the home and in the church. There, the top dog must be a man. This is duplicitous. It falls into spiritual dualism of secular-vs-sacred.
If men & women are to be complementary, that they have different God-ordained roles, and if we are an eschatological people, then the only conclusion is that we should seek to live heavenly here on earth. I.E., that in heaven these complementary roles will continue. This means denying women any role that does not fit into that complementary compartment.
Unfortunately for the health of the discussion, complementarians are ducking the direct theological/philosophical implications of their position. To be *truly* “biblically: complementarian demands a position that women should *never* be in a position of authority over a man.
However, if, say, Mark Driscoll, or John Piper, or any other complementarian were to say “Women should not be doctors or lawyers or managers or CEOs or judges or police or politicians or anything else in which they may have authority over a man” they would immediately lose the respect of 95% of their followers. Thus, they don’t say that, even though their theology really does demand it.
We in the U.S. have gone through a painful process of learning that our African American brothers and sisters aren’t complementary to us, that they aren’t 3/5ths human, that they aren’t our chattell. And we are still paying the price of our white arrogance, and continue to need to ask forgiveness and be re-educated.
Unfortunately, to the fundamentalist churches such as Mars Hill, women are 3/5ths of a man.
Despite that Jesus lived with the marginalized. Despite that Paul said there is neither male nor female. Despite the women apostles and prophets.
It is interesting to note that pretty much the *only* people Jesus took out his hammer on were the pharisees and saduccees. He didn’t call the Samaritans “broods of vipers”. Nor the tax collectors. Or prostitutes. Nope, he reserved his anger for the religious leaders who oppressed the people of God.
Today, there are religious leaders who still oppress. Right here in Seattle.
It’s really depressing to to be slapped in the face with one’s naivity. To exist in a world where one’s voice is usually heard, when I can serve God in whatever way I am called, where I can use my mind, where my husband loves and respects me, where I expect other believers to actually follow Christ - and then read this dumping of hate and oppression… its sad and overwhelming. I’m stupid. I’m naive. And yes - that is my personal reaction, my personal experience reading this.
We will reach no resolution on this topic because we have very different presuppositions from which we operate (presuppositions that have nothing to do with women). The primary difference in our presuppositions is the authority we assign to Scripture. My conviction is that Scripture is reliable and relevant for today. I am convicted that while I must studiously study Scripture to understand it, I am not allowed to pick and choose which commands I will obey based on how they make me feel about myself. So when God says He created woman as a helper suitable to the man, I take note. When God says that wives should submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ, I take note. To pawn this off as some twisted teaching MD is propagating of his own is to ignore Scripture itself.
Louise,
A lot of believers who respect scripture every bit as much as you do, and who take it as seriously as you do, would still disagree with you. It’s not a matter of being flippant with scripture. It would be helpful if you could assume that we all love the Lord and we all take the scripture seriously and are willing to do as it leads.
I don’t think anyone is trying to “pawn this off as some twisted teaching MD is propagating”, its a common view and a lot of Christians feel that way - I used to too. I do think that the fruit of this teaching in his life is problematic. If this view leads to saying things like he did about women, then something is off. Do you think the style of leading women that have been exposed here are what Jesus had in mind when he asked Peter to feed his sheep?
Louise
I used to think as you do. It wasn’t until I took a higher view of scripture ad actually started studing it that I started to accept the concept that women can be in miistry. I do not throw away anything, instead I stopped ignoring/throwing away the passages that show women doing God’s work. I just wish all christians would show the scriptures the respect they deserve.
Louise, when my son was born three months ago, my wife and I decided to have him circumcised. Have I denied the gospel? According to Paul in Galatians, I have. Am I picking and choosing? Or am I engaging in an interpretive act that we all do when we attempt to enact scripture in our own context?
Scott, you don’t need me to answer. You know from Scripture that circumcision is not the issue. I assume you’re trying to draw a similar analogy that Paul’s comments on women weren’t the issue either. However, the teaching on women is not specific to Paul. It starts in Genesis 2 and procedes throughout the various cultures addressed in Scripture.
One final thought I’ll address and then I must be done with this discussion. Many statements made here are spoken from a mob mentality that is completely unaware of the actual position Mars Hill takes on women in leadership. If you would like a fully informed understanding of the issue, you can find it explained on the Mars Hill website (under downloads, misc. audio, debates).
If you want to debate Scripture, I’m all for it. I did not make this an attack on a person. The author of this thread did that. However, I think the link on the www.marshillchurch.org website does a fairly concise job of articulating the Scriptural position the church (and I) hold. If after listening to it, you want to tear it apart piece by piece using a reasonable hermeneutic, feel free. My objection now is to the uninformed ad hominem attacks that repeatedly speak false information on Mars Hill’s position.
Blessings,
Louise
There are commandments and statements issued regarding poverty thousands of times throughout scripture…is the church dedicating its mission to the poor?
Over and over, Christ demonstrates the idea of the great reversal–how the last shall become first. He was NOT interested in social order, but in people loving God first and their neighbor second. Neighbor being gender-neutral.
The role of gender is mentioned very little in the gospels, whereas God’s love for all people–particularly the marginalized– is mentioned over and over again. Paul is the one who speaks most on marriage, and although his texts are important, he’s not Jesus. Didn’t even know him directly. Above all, I follow the example of Jesus, his life, his teachings, his character. I am a Christ-ian.
To deny the reality of these womens’ experiences, and minimize their importance is cruel. It’s akin to the response to a domestic violence victim–”You’re over-reacting–He didn’t really mean it-You must have done something–”. It allows the cycle to continue, because it forces people to remain silent. Why get hurt again?
You can see from the reaction on this thread why it would be pointless to try and pursue any individual action at the church–it would just create more pain for the victims.
Louise,
You speak of taking scripture seriously, yet I ask this in light of scripture, Do you wear makeup, have you braided you hair, wear jewelry and do your cover your head when you worship?
Just asking,
Jeff
Dear Louise,
Thank you so much for writing this:
“The primary difference in our presuppositions is the authority we assign to Scripture. My conviction is that Scripture is reliable and relevant for today. I am convicted that while I must studiously study Scripture to understand it, I am not allowed to pick and choose which commands I will obey based on how they make me feel about myself.”
I am SOOO excited to find a church like you describe Mars Hill to be. So few churches or even “Christians” really treat Scripture with the authority it deserves and demands. I’m doubly excited to learn that y’all have found a way to bypass all those “cultural lenses” through which so many are forced to interpret Scripture today!**
I’m so excited that I have bunches of questions!!!
But first, let me share a concern with you. I was checking out your website like you provided, and I was a little troubled by what I saw in that Q13 Fox News clip. The women portrayed as “church members” look a little rebellious and defiant. I’ve been studying 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 in one of my classes, and what I read in verse 5 makes me nervous when I see all those women in MH’s congregation without head coverings (some even, brace yourself, had short hair), especially when you consider 1 Thessalonians 5:17, to pray continually! I was relieved to see that none of the men had hats or other head coverings on. Oh, wait, there was that guy with the motorcycle helmet. I take that back then. And that guy with the Mohawk, who was labeled a “church member”. I actually have no problem with Mohawks, it just that his particular Mohawk seemed a little “long.” In light of verse 14, that makes me still more nervous. If they weren’t labeled “church members” then I could have at least written them off as unbelievers. But I’m sure you will address all of that. Those people have probably been corrected by now, right?
So, how do you live out 1 Corinthians 11:5? This is where all my exciting questions come!
I have so much to learn!
Do you prefer bonnets or hats or large “kerchiefs”? (don’t you hate it when it comes off? A friend once had to wait until a man scotch-taped a paper plate onto her head before she even opened her mouth in public (true story). She was humiliated, but I think you and I (and others in the know) would agree that the man was just being resourceful and caring, right?)
Figuring out the practicalities of straight-up, un-interpreted Scripture can be so intricate, that it’s like a clever little game! So fun!
Do you prefer to braid your hair? Or the ponytail? Or the bun? Or just let it go loose?
Do you crawl under a blanket to brush your hair so that you can have your head covered while praying continually?
When men become believers, do y’all have barbers up front for the altar call? (do y’all even do altar calls?) How long is too long? Who decides that?
When women get cancer and undergo Chemo, and her hair falls out in patches, and she shaves her head so that it doesn’t look like mange, how long does her hair have to be before she can pray again? Or, oooooohhh, do y’all have a resident wig-maker? This is a whole world I’ve been dying to explore!
it’s so silly that people refuse to treat Scripture authoritativly, ESPECIALLY, given paul’s warning in v 16: “If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.”
I am eagerly awaiting your reply comment, or email!
In Christ,
kristi
**(I know that you probably can’t talk about it in an open forum like this, but I would be really interested in getting in touch with the pastor/director of y’all’s Time Travel Ministry. Since I’m sure y’all also offer courses in Early Aramaic, (to prepare for “the trip” and all) how often do those start? Quarterly? Semesterly? And how much do they cost? I gotta start saving!
)
There are several things going on here that are confusing the issue.
1. The original blog entry took several anecdotal stories (one-sided) and built a whole argument about a scriptural teaching out of them. That is not a good way to do theology. Theology is not built off of experience, but off of revelation. If Driscoll or someone at Mars Hill did treat women with disrespect, that does not change the Bible’s teaching. Telling heart wrenching, one sided anecdotes hardly serves a worthy purpose, unless your purpose is to pull on heart strings without the cords of Scripture.
2. Several comments have been made about women fulfilling their God-given calls and passions for ministry. Complementarians never deny a woman the opportunity to fulfill her God-given call. What complementarians believe is that God does not call a woman to do something he has commanded her not to do. That is the highest form of spiritual abuse. Someone who loves God and his Word would never call someone to live in disobedience, or allow them to continue in disobedience without loving and gracious confrontation and call to repentance.
3. On equality in the church, complementarians have no issues with that. Complementarians take very serious that there is no more male or female. They also read the rest of hte verse and put it in context. The context there is not leadership function, but spiritual equality. Complementarians believe that women are equal in spirituality before God. They are equal in personhood before God. In fact, biblical Christianity is the one place in human history that has honored women when no other places have.
4. Too many people are confusing equality of personhood with equality of roles. God has defined gender roles, and it is not up to anyone to redefine them.
In all this passage about women and ministry, there has been a lot of opinion but very little discussion of revelation. That shows a serious disregard for God’s word. How can we talk about the church and men and women and not center the discussion on Scripture? What drove this conversation to get to 77 comments with so little of God’s comments on the matter? We have talked about a lot culture, a lot about feelings, a lot about stories of how people were treated, and very little about what God’s says.
1 Tim 2 is explicit on this matter. Women are not forbidden from learning. In fact, they are commanded to learn. Women are not forbidden from teaching. In fact, they are commanded to teach (Titus 2:4). What they are not to do in the church is have authority or to teach men.
Many of you will claim (as someone already did) that this was a first century problem because women weren’t educated in the first century and therefore couldn’t teach properly. That is simply not true, in Scripture. Scripture tells us that women were educated in the things of God. They were knowledgeable about Scripture.
But more importantly, look at the tex