A thread, A thread: Am I Supposed to be Like Jesus?
This is my crew using thier v. powerful brains. I went away for a weekend and this is what they cooked up while I was gone. I thought it was interesting…maybe you might too….
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Mike Starts us Off:
I’ve been pondering a thought lately. Many people teach that to follow Jesus you need to be just like Jesus. Loving every person you come in contact with, sharing the “good news”, not SINNING!
My thought is; How is striving to be just like Jesus any different from striving to keep the Ten Commandments? We will always fall short no matter how hard we try for one or the other. This makes me think, is that really what we should be striving and putting all of our energy toward? Or is there something else?
Thoughts? Rebukes? My thoughts to come….
Whoa, were half way there, .Whoa, livin’ on a prayer, take my hand and we’ll make it I swear, Whoa, livin’ on a prayer
- Bon Jovi
Josh jumps in:
And does God really want us to be like Jesus? I mean didn’t He/She create us the way that we are and love us the way that we are? Why would God want a bunch of clones of his one perfect son? Why wouldn’t he/she want a myriad of crazy psychotic schizo children?
How cool would it be to be able to deconstruct the “be like Jesus,” And change it into: Be YOURSELF! And love. Love deeply, and givingly. What would it be like if we could change the tune to be our own tune, and not some long forgotten meaning of a melody. And then Jesus could ADD his tune to ours, making it have even more depth and beauty. What a great thought!
Thanks for sharing a random thought, hope you don’t mind my completely mad ramblings being tagged along with it all.
Josh
Lindell Says Yep…and…:
I totally agree with you Josh. The “be like Jesus” idea has been really distorted by fundies. I like to think that “being like Jesus” isn’t about copying Jesus’ behavior, it’s about expressing our own unique identity just like Jesus fully expressed his own identity. God doesn’t want to replace our uniqueness with some new “Jesus” personality. He wants to help us discover the deep complexity of the personality that He gave us.
Josh Replies:
Hey thanks Lindell. I appreciate it.
I totally agree with your response. I don’t think that Jesus wants us to be
JUST like him either. I think he celebrates in our uniqueness. I think
that he likes us individually for a reason. And if your into the whole idea
that you have “one certain thing your supposed to do with your life”.
Doesn’t it make sense that you would be created uniquely and individually
for that purpose?
I think we are all unique, and we all need to explore that. Not to be just
like Jesus, but to be OURSELVES, WITH Jesus. I think that’s what He wants
too. I think that he wants us to step into our own birthrights, so to
speak. ….
And he definitely wants to help. And we need his help. But the
“What Would Jesus Do?” to me, it’s a bunch of crap. Maybe that “WWJD” is
more like, “what’s the right thing to do?”. And that’s all good and fine.
But where is there room for me in all of this? My post-modern selfish
nature really shows in this. I want a voice and I want it to count. I
don’t want to be just like the millions of people out there. I want my
story, to be mine. Otherwise, what’s the point? Why would I tell my story
to anybody if it’s the same as theirs? Why should I even try? So we can
both celebrate our own blandness? Wahoo.
My disclaimer: I come from a very burnt-out, anti-religion, frustrated with
CHURCH in general point of view. I am still however a believer in God and
the core of who I am revolves around that. So take what I say knowing that.
Mike wraps us up:
Sweet! Everything all you contributors to my post have written is blending nicely to why I brought the whole thing up. Every response was slightly different. But I feel like each of us are in the same place with it. We recognize that trying to be JUST like Jesus is futile as well as not what He/God wants for us. The thing that spawned this whole thought for me was; I had a day off-island recently servicing the car and I usually take something to read while I’m waiting. Well, this time I took my copy of the message. (I bought it in Cali in March and haven’t had much motivation to read.) So, I plopped down at StarB’s and read Romans 1-8 or so. (that’s a lot of reading for me in one sitting 
When I finished reading I came up with this email question.
I think we are all on a good path of realizing that we don’t HAVE to be JUST like Jesus. That is clear from the responses. What I didn’t really get much of, was how do we be our shameful, sinful, selfish selves and live in a loving relationship with perfect beings. Bob touched on it.
So the conclusion I came to is, The thing I/we need to strive the hardest for is GRACE. Gaining a deeper understanding of God’s grace and letting it flow through me is how I can deal with my “human” nature. It is how I can Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself. If I’m beating myself over the head with my bible, what’s to keep me from beating someone else with it. I need to constantly remember that I WILL fall short of perfection and only by God’s loving grace I DON’T CARE! Doesn’t mean I like it, but if I let myself feel guilty every time I drop a obvious sin, I’d be a wreck. And I think God understands that too. (duh, he knows everything) lol
I don’t think using the life of Jesus as an example is a bad thing either though. There are a lot worse examples we could choose. Marilyn Manson, Bon Jovi, Depeche Mode. LOL I liked what “The Message” said about the distortion that took place with the 10 Cmdts. “Sin simply did what sin is so famous for doing: using the good as a cover to tempt me to do what would finally destroy me.” I see that happening with the “Fundies” as Lindell calls them. We need to be aware of that and not let it take over the good things we have.
So in conclusion, I pray that you all can find God’s grace to you so you can have grace with me when I do something stoopid or offending.
Love ya,
Paul adds a footnote:
My ethics prof at Regent (Stan Grenz, for you name-droppers) had an ethical theory he called the eschatological imperative: be who you will become. Rather than focusing on rules and your actions, focus on your character. Basically, in the age to come (I’m avoiding the use of the term ‘heaven’ here) we’ll have a changed nature (i.e., ’sinless’, whatever that means), and we should strive to live that out here & now.
Still Lindell:
I like Josh’s comment. Too often “I want to be like Jesus” ends up seeming budhistic, where we are merged into the divine, obliterating us in the process. God created diversity because, presumably, he likes it.
I just hope Jesus’ tune isn’t something by Bon Jovi…
Rachelle celebrates:
I would just like to say, that this is why I don’t feel the need to preach. You all teach one another. You are teaching/learning community. Who needs a preacher?
Good work crew! I’m really proud of you!
Mike, don’t give yourself a concussion with that Bible.
“We are called to be crossbearers, rather than cross-wearers…the cross means voluntarily choosing to live our lives for others, letting the life of Jesus show us what true spirituality is. The issue is not so much WWJD (”What would Jesus do?”) but HDJL (”How did Jesus live?”). ”
Howard Snyder, The Community of the King, p 218)
The question is; what is HE doing right now? How is HE living right now? He is alive you know.
Chris,
I think what the crew is saying here reflects an integrated approach to the theology of incarnation. Yes, Jesus is alive and active right now. He is after all, dwelling incarnate within his creation, including within the people he created. So when we follow our individual callings, passions, and Spirit-inspired instincts we see Christ alive and in action in the world. And when we build communities which help us to do this both individually and communally, kingdom reality unfolds in a broader swath before us and around us as we live out incarnational realities.
Rachelle
Great thought provoking conversation here people. But let’s not swing the pendulum too far to the other extreme. While you are totally right about our striving to be like Christ is parallel to Israel and the 10 commands, let’s not go so far to throw out the whole idea of becoming like Jesus.
Its a both/and reality really, not an either/or. A paradox. God has created us with different views and personalities, and does not want us to be clones. But somehow, a few of the above comments had too much of an individualistic ring to them. God is able to let us all live to be like Christ,yet still be different. It comes through the Spirit, not by our own actions.
BTW, I totally agree with your thoughts on grace!
What I think is that we are not individual enough. (generally speaking) I think we as humans, have given God too much room and space. I think that a lot of times (maybe this is just me), we are looking at God pleading “What do you want me to do!?!?!?!!!!” And God is sitting there identical to us saying “Well, what do you WANT to do?” “What is it YOU want?” “Where does YOUR heart lead you?”
God GAVE us free will, why on earth or heaven would he just demand that we give up our rights and thoughts and everything right after He just gave it to us? Wouldn’t it have been easier for him to just go, “oh, well that dude can’t control himself, no free will for him.” I believe that God gave us free will and then backs that up with His belief in us. God has more faith in us than we do.
I don’t think that God sits up in heaven and says “You have to do ‘this’, because that’s what I have planned and that’s the way it’s gonna be.” I think that God is more like, “I gave you desires and wants, and the ability to follow them. I want you to be you. And I want to come too. I want to see you be happy and be you.”
Let me try this a different way.
I think that what God wants is an equal relationship with us. You know a give/take relationship. Like we have with a best friend, or a spouse. Sure each person has strengths and weaknesses, and they can rely on each other to help the other out. God may be the stronger in the relationship but the point is that He wants a relationship.
I can picture Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, chilling with God talking about the weirdest thing they saw some animal do that day.
I can picture Daniel asking God what he thought about the melody he just played.
I can picture Jesus poking fun at his disciples around a campfire and laughing about a good story.
I like the idea of a relationship with God that isn’t always… be just like me, or be just like my son. But more… be yourself with me, and I’ll be myself with you.
These are just my thoughts, but please respond. Blog discussions are fun, but people have to participate in them for them to be anywhere near interesting. So please, discuss this with me/us.
Good post, Josh.
Someone once told me something that didn’t make any sense for at least a year. I had to think about it nearly every day before I finally understood.
“God gives us the desires of our heart.”
Now, that could have meaning in two different directions. Number one, (the understanding that was like a breakthrough for me) - God PLACES desires in our hearts. Like when we want to go out and impact the world, or when we decide to be a hairstylist.. whatever it is that we think defines SELF could actually stem from God’s inspiration. Not to say that the self is lacking..
At the time I had a great deal of difficulty in justifying my goals to God. I would pray “God, I want to do this, how do you feel about that?” Or “God, may I please do this, are you comfortable with it?”
Well, what if there’s a connection? What if God made me the head-in-the-clouds dork that I am, because he wants to see his purpose fulfilled through me? *What if there isn’t any seperation?*
What God wants and what I want are the same. And that can include personal goals.
The other interpretation would obviously be that God will give us what we desire, as long as it’s pure in nature. Maybe it doesn’t even have to be righteous.. just pure. I don’t want to open up a church, I want to open up a coffee shop. But if my reasons are good ones, I think God will validate that.
Maybe what I just wrote is completely off subject, but it clicked with me when I read your post.
Theresa
Great topic. I have been on this kick lately, seeing the balance between God’s initiative and my initiative. I suppose it’s a Calvinist/Arminian debate in my soul or something, but that seems too black and white.
“I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.” - Paul, phil 3:10
This one is one of those hard rock candy verses for me that I have to ponder, chew on, let seep in. “Becoming like him in his death”, that’s a tricky one.
“Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.” - John, 1 John 3:2,3
John seems to be describing both a process and an eventuality. A process of becoming like him, so that when the bell is rung, we will be like him. But interestingly, we’re like him because we’ll see him.
You know how people who live together for a long time begin to look and act alike - speech patterns, behavior patterns, that king of thing? Maybe it’s all based on the process of presence?
I think about this topic this way: I’m Christlike when I let Christ’s life grow within me, letting him transform me, heal, touch, renew me. His initiative, my response. “Hey Pat, let’s work on that self-confidence thing again, huh?” “OK, but I know it’s gonna hurt”.
Yeah but I have just one question for all you know it alls. Do animals have souls?
)
Carry on.
Most definitely animals have souls. Why wouldn’t they?
Carry on.
My uncle and I were discussing that. It was quite a healing moment.
I don’t care if it’s biblical or not, my cat pilgrim, who was like my sister for 18 years (I’m an only child, so she was the closest thing I knew), and my dog mercy, and my other cat petunia and my former iguana ian and my former guinnea pig blatherskite—
they’re all waiting for me just inside the pearly gates. or maybe they’re running around in the fields just outside the great big city God calls home in his heavenly heaven.
But I know they’re there. I connect too much with animals to just accept that they turn to dust never to exist again.
And it’s physics too.. energy doesn’t cease to exist. Once it’s created, it can only transfer from one kinetic form to another. Like in the movie Powder. Well, if you saw it, that’s a rather odd reference.. But once you exist you can’t just stop existing, you still exist somewhere else in some other form. Same with animals, I truly believe.
And then what of the conscience of an animal?
Maybe it’s similar to Age of Desicion in people. A komodo dragon doesn’t stand a chance, a chinchilla is pure in heart, and dogs have a lot of reason to use in their furry little brains, at least all the dogs I’ve met.
I wouldn’t want to see a velociraptor in heaven, though. Perhaps it’s all relative.
Heaven is no place I’d want to be without Pilgrim the siamese, though.
You know the problem with the whole free will debate? Calvinists insist that God must have free will, but don’t allow humans to have any. Arminians insist that humans must have free will but don’t allow God to have any. But a relationship isn’t much of a relationship if both parties don’t have free will. It’s slavery.
This may sound like heresy to some, but I don’t think God is looking to control his earthly lovers - to suck us into a co-dependent relationship with the Big G. I think God wants to have an inter-dependent relationship humanity. He wants humanity to have space to express their own identity and he wants to support them as they grow into the potential he planted within them. But God also needs space to be God. He needs to be able to express himself and he needs us to support him as he lives out his own potential. Or in Christianese, God needs humanity to support his kingdom activity in creation. He needs us to proclaim his worth and identity to the world.
That’s why I think marriage is such an apt metaphor for our relationship with God: Two inter-dependent individuals covenanting together to love and support one another’s dreams and goals and committing to sacrificing selfish desires for the greater good of the relationship.
That’s a great post lindell. I think that you nailed what I have been trying to say sideways. A real relationship is two people coming together out of free will and genuine respect and love for each other. Otherwise its slavery.
Thus statements like Pat’s “I’m Christlike when I let Christ’s life grow within me”, doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. I’m not trying to say your wrong Pat. I think it’s great that that works for you. But to me, it just fails to make a shred of sense. For me Christ has been doing his damndest to just get me to be me and let my own life grow within me. He’s trying to get me to be myself and not really trying at all to get me to be like Him. Or to conform to any kind of religion. He’s simply hangin with me. Saying things that my best friend says to me. “Hey, what’s up with you last night? That wasn’t you. Where did that come from?”
It’s like… He gives me the benefit of the doubt and lets things fall where they may. In short. He’s got my back.
very interesting points made by everybody. things i have been thinking about continually for like 4 years now. some conclusions i have made. today’s christianity has become too individualistic. look at almost every praise and worship song in the last 50 years. It’s all about ME, what God does for ME, what I do for God, blah blah blah. what ever happened to community? look at Acts chapter 2. after peter preached his amazing sermon, three thousand become saved and what do they do? they sell all their possessions, give when and where needed, live together, worship together, all on a daily basis. it wasn’t about the individual, it was about others and community. when did our selfishness seep in? i heard a quote, with which much thought, i happen to agree with, here it is…. “Jesus didn’t come to save the individual, He came to save the world.”
Yes Jesus loves us all individually, and through that love we are all individually saved, but if we stop there, we miss the whole point of the sacrifice Jesus made for us. We are supposed to be sacrifices, in this culture, worldview, families, our daily lives. Even our own individuality. so, how does all this relate to our daily lives in a practical way. two things-Love God, Love others. What did Jesus say? “all the law and the prophets hang on these two things” No matter what your individual goals are, no matter what your individual passions may be, no matter what your individual experiences have shown you, if you can sincerely live your life on those two things, and really dwell on those, you are fulfilling God’s Will in your life. He does give us free will, which means we can choose how to live and what choices we make, but in the book of John, Jesus explains to his disciples that if we love Jesus, we will obey his commands. Love God and Love others. remember, it doesn’t stop in our individuality, it starts there. please reply back. these are things that i have dwelled on almost continually for 4 years now, and i am open to some new insights if anybody has any.
Nick, great post. And I feel I must say that if there is one thing I believe in the most, it’s community. I totally think that only in community will we ever, EVER, be able to be happy with ourselves, our lives, and life in general. So in short, I agree. For the most part.
When you speak of individualness it sounds like your speaking of it in a church setting. I too am not interested in statements like: “It’s all about ME, what God does for ME, what I do for God, blah blah blah.” I’m more interested in the truth and reality of a relationship with God. And maybe that’s already a reality for you. If so, GREAT! I’m truly happy for you. I haven’t got that yet. I was in the church for awhile, became SERIOUSLY disillusioned, and now I’m trying to figure these things out for myself. So from my perspective, Christianity today is not too individual but too selfish. It’s too much about what I want and need and not enough about my God, my friend. It may not seem like a huge distinction, but to me it is.
The other thing I would like to say is more just a side note.
You said talked about the sacrifice that Jesus made for us. I agree he sacrificed for all of us. But I don’t think that’s the point either. The point, at least the way I see it and the way it is for me, is that He came back. He went through hell, and then came back. So simple, so profound. He didn’t just die, and say “whew, glad that’s over, I’m going home now to rest.” He came back to give us hope and to confirm everything he said. To me Jesus’ sacrifice of life is WAY overplayed. To me, Jesus’ willingness to come back and say “Hey, there’s something better over there, and I want you to be a part of it.” That’s what moves me. That’s what makes me want to believe.
If this doesn’t make sense, please feel free to email me.
Josh, thanks for replying to my reply. you typed, “So from my perspective, Christianity today is not too individual but too selfish. It’s too much about what I want and need and not enough about my God, my friend.” That’s exactly what my point was. that selfishness is a result of a individualistic society and culture, and that’s one of the problems with american christianity. and it is not just in a church setting, it’s everywhere in america. we have an ideology of relativism, of what’s good for you might not be good for me and vice versa but as long as you don’t push your ideas or beliefs on me we’ll get along just fine. we have an ideology of look out for number one and let me do my own thing, discover my own person. it’s gotten to be an extreme in our society, and it’s an extreme that no longer allows for any type of absolutes. my truth can be different from your truth or i can sincerely believe something different than your truth. josh, can’t somebody be sincerely wrong? can there be such a thing as two opposite truths? i don’t think so. that’s where american christianity falters, in the search of cultural relevance and personal experience, we lose sight of absolute truth. your last paragraph is very awesome. paul even said that without the resurrection, christianity would be nothing but a farce. (extreme paraphrase!) i don’t know you so i’m a bit confused, but you stated that a relationship with God is not a reality for you. how can it not be when you seem to know the truth for what it is? sorry if i’m butting in and will understand if you don’t want to share something so personal. anyhow, think about american christianity vs christianity in persecuting countries. what are some differences? i think you will see that they don’t even have the luxury to debate what’s truth and not truth, but they truly live sacrificial lives and know what it truly means to have a relationship based on God’s love vs our superficial “what do i get out of it” mentality. their motivation is not getting saved from hell, but saved from sin. think about the difference and what implications that could have on not only our “individual” lives, but on american christianity in general
But where do we get absolute truth from? And is the place that you get your truth any better than the place where I get my truth from?
The truth of my reality can very well be very different from the truth of your reality. My story, my life, it’s mine. And that is a truth that is different than anybody else’s. That truth gives strength and merit to a greater truth. One that I believe in. Like you said, truth for people in other countries is much different than truth for us here in America. Should it be the same? I don’t think so. Why shouldn’t we live in the culture we are in? I am trying to define truth and I have the luxury to take advantage of that. People in other countries don’t have the luxury to try to define truth like I do. And that’s great for them, they can live a life that’s full of meaning for them. But I’m sorry, I’m not going to move to another country to find God in a non-superficial way. I’ll live it out here, and I’ll do my best to try and define that. FOR MYSELF.
I think there are absolute truths. But I’d bet that the truths that I hold as sacred are different from the truths you hold sacred. But they are still valid. It’s like memories. You have memories of times and views of things that no other person in the world has. I have memories of things that no one else will ever be able to experience. My life is a culmination of the life I have lived. Without the path behind me, I would not be where I am. Therefore the truths that my heart holds as sacred, are different than the truths that you hold sacred. Simply because mine have come out of the road of hardships that I have endured, and it’s the same for you. I believe that everybody has a story to tell. And I believe that everybody has their own truth that is an essence of who they are and what keeps them going. Everyone has a piece of the puzzle. And without everyone’s individual piece of the puzzle, the puzzle isn’t finished. It’s incomplete. Whatever your puzzle piece is. It’s your heart, and your truth. It’s yours, nobody can change that, nobody can deny that, and nobody can define that for you.
Now let me make a couple of distinctions. I believe in God and I believe that these truths come from God. I believe that the truth that flows from you is from God.
And I also think that you can’t just go crazy with this ideology. I completely agree with you in that American Christianity, or even society at large, has gone a little haywire with the idea that I can do what ever the f@#$ I want and to hell with you if you disagree. And yes I agree that if this ideology is taken too far than anarchy will run rampant. But at the same time, I just can’t deny what I see. And this is the truth as I see it.
And to answer your question: yes I believe somebody can be sincerely wrong. But who is to say what’s wrong? Who am I to say what’s wrong? I am not about to judge somebody. I have every right to say to myself. “That’s wrong, and therefore I am not going to follow that or allow that for me in any way.”
But I think it gets a little more iffy when you start saying that others are wrong and they must believe as you believe. And yes I do believe that also can be taken to an extreme. For instance, murder. Yes, that’s wrong. And a whole list of other things. But you know what, my point is that it isn’t my job to tell people what’s wrong with the way they live their lives. I will leave the judging to God. My mere mortal mind can’t take in all the complexities of life.
I just want a church where I don’t have to be IN a church; Where Christ is Center; Where everyone does their own thing and doesn’t get into each other’s hair, yet no one is scared to hold each other accountable to the Truth in the Word; Where everyone values each other just as much as self (or God, if self-opinion still needs some work);
Where meeting the priorities and needs of Other is just as important as the priorities of Self (yet not in a gross co-depandant way); and above all, a church where I don’t have to go every week. Food being provided is also a plus.
I guess I’m just going to have to wait for the afterlife.
sorry if my last post killed the conversation. My intention was simply to state my point of view.
sorry it took so long to write back, haven’t had access to a computer for a few days. and your last post didn’t kill the conversation if you were referring to me. i would, at this time, like to say that even if i don’t agree with everything you say, i do like your thinking and i feel that i can learn from it. and i hope i wasn’t coming across earlier like i knew the “Truth”. like i said before, it’s something that my mind has dwealt on continually for the past 4 years or so, and that is the end result so far. a couple of things i would like to add also, is that everything we have discussed so far is a bunch of theories and abstract thoughts. what i have been truly struggling with is how do you make these theories a reality in our daily lives? whether we are too individualistic or not individualistic enough, how does that translate in how we live our lives? what do we tolerate and not tolerate? do we tolerate everything or do we draw the line somewhere and realize that there are some absolutes for what God calls us to do as Christians? how do we make Christ the center point of our lives? Do we allow culture to influence our viewpoint on God, or do we allow our relationship with God to influence how we view culture and how we relate in that culture? I believe there are answers to these questions, though i may not have them. and i believe our experiences may have given us some insights on these questions. but i also believe scripture is infallable and we can find the answers through them. my interpretation is faulty, but the Bible is still a revelation from God, and one that our finite minds can grasp for the most part. or what would be the point in sending it to us in the first place? please, everybody’s thoughts are welcome and again i apologize if i seemed a bit rash in my earlier posts, but i still think that what i have posted is on the right track. but again, replies by josh have a lot of wisdom in them and i think that he is on the right track as well. so how do you relate the two seemingly opposing ideas? another question. i look forward to any responses.
Nick, I appreicate your post. Thanks. As for your questions: the one thing that I can think of right off the top of my head is this. There doesn’t have to be questions on whether you should listen to the prevailing culture or God. I think that the life that surrounds us, and the God that is with us is totally ingrained into each other. When you try to seperate the two you get into the seperatist lifestyle. (I live in my christian house, with my christian friends, I go to the christian coffee shop and only buy things from christian stores) I think that God is totally immersed into today’s culture. Sometimes He is hard to see and hard to understand, because we are limited in our thinking and understanding. God has no such limitations.
To me, I am just starting to be able to wrap my mind around this thinking and thought process. I have yet begun to actually see life everyday with this kind of thinking/understanding. Thus, I am very far away from actually making it to living life in the way I am talking. It just makes sense to me in my head. I have yet to be able to see it, and even farther away from living it. But I think it’s got to be a process. Otherwise it’s just not real.
I love your questions Nick. Thanks for asking them. Here’s the question that I have been pondering today… If you were to go out and look for God in _________ (the place where you live), where do you think you would find him?
I would say, out on the streets, hangin with the masses.
*I reserve the right to think on these questions and to post again later*